What makes a DAC so expensive?

@grannyring 

agree

the drivel is everywhere, crowds out useful opinions

curious, in your view, where have the other good guys gone?  audio asylum is pretty dead... 

I’m fairly new around here, and I think just about everyone comes with a mixed bag, myself included.

In the current thread, djones has maintained an argument with a respectable degree of focus. If counter-arguments are worthy of consideration, simply present them and argue them with clarity and useful, as Shroeder put it, "data." I don’t doubt that there are equal, perhaps even better ways of explaining things...?

Again, I’m somewhat new, only a little over one-hundred posts. I’m here because I love music. I’m interested in serious scrutiny of the issues at stake. I (I think) have had only one person respond to my questions about how power supply, compression and OP amps might be reflected in measurement data.

I’ve heard a number of claims and critiques on the basis of power supply, OP amps and compression, so who has the background to make authoritative claims on these matters. Yes, one person did offer a few quite friendly comments, from what I could detect, but I would love to learn more, if you have a moment...

Only one has (apparently) taken up the work of looking over the "data" for the new Modius DAC, which posts a THD+N of as low as .0002 per channel. What does that data contain? One person claims the THD+N would also include power supply noise.

@audioman58 claims:

...digital jitter,noise artifacts do matter

With genuine interest, I’d like to ask those of you with considerable experience with these somewhat technical matters, and even those with less than considerable experience, and I include myself in the fairly low of the less end of the latter, to take a look at the "jitter" statistics for the Modius - I’m posting the "measurements" data/process after this paragraph.... It sort of embarrasses me that I might look like I’m trying to sell the Modius. I haven’t even heard it, frankly, but it has received many good reviews, a few exceptional reviews, and a little bit of mixed reviews. I ordered one and it should arrive in a few days. I’m prepared to spend more, but I don’t see a reason to do so if I don’t have some sense of improvement on the basis of my research...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-modius-balanced-dac-review.13769/

What I read is a claim that the jitter, for the Modius, is VERY low, amongst DACs. I know a guy - must be VERY technically adept - on here was pedaling his $8000.00 reclocker, and I know it addressed jitter, so it seems "jitter" is viewed as extremely important around here. Does 8000K for a reclocker look like a sign of importance, to you?

So, does the posted review point to a new level of jitter reduction skill available to the low-cost DAC, at least in this instance? I know so little about the tech that I’m at the mercy of all of you when it comes to the role of a reclocker. I was told it impacted jitter, but it really could impact gamma rays, for all I know... are gamma rays part of the sound experience?

@mahgister probably knows.

Transparency does seem to be a valuable issue, or standard, in this discussion, and how is this equated with a low THD+N? At what point does it become a concern, if it is abandoned?

I do think @douglas_schroeder call for evidence is justifiable, AND certainly we can also ask him for evidence on the capacity to hear significant desirable differences across the top 20 measured DACs on the mentioned site. Data for a similar spread of DACs reviewed in like fashion would also work well, I think...?

If the differences extend beyond the basic measurements, what are they really pointing to? Are we claiming that a "maxed out power supply" brings bass of greater weight? Is that weight measurable? Is that weight distortion? Maybe the word distortion has become "bad" and we need to ask out distortion might be helping things out. Nelson Pass seems to have a positive relationship with Distortion. He also says, "Don’t push the river," when it comes to design...

Incidentally, I’ve just realized how much more bass weight come through my Dennis Had Fire-Bottle, compared to my Schiit Aegir. I hope I’m not downvoting a Schiit product here, but I’m being deadly honest. With 11watts per channel, the Fire-Bottle easily reveals potent bass. The Aegir, which might be more detailed in some respects, falls down in bass richness, some of the time. On the other hand, that detail can come through the Aegir with a liquidity that I have not heard in the Fire-Bottle.

So, would any of these differences in bass come out in measurement? YES - I like the bass of the Fire-Bottle better than the bass of the Aegir, but it would be helpful to learn about what I’m getting, and when it comes to a DAC... would love to hear what you all know...!

I will readily admit that there is the CENTRAL ISSUE of what sounds good. I am hearing a large number of people point to "analog" as the sound signature of preference, and it is interesting that some people buying DAC’s are doing so with the aim of achieving digital sources that can be made to sound analog. This probably points to a split in how DACs are designed. I understand - and I’m stretching beyond what I can say I know for certain - but, I understand the Nelson Pass is purposefully using distortion in relation to the second harmonic, which people very much enjoy.

Tube amps are also designed with resulting distortion and that distortion (in some designs) imparts a feeling for greater soundstage and the illusion of more authentic substance in the expression of the notes of the various instruments. I mentioned bass, above.

I am struck that DACs can be very simple and then they can include a fairly large complement of tubes, and people often pair one tube component with another solid state component. Generally and in my small experience, this has been seen in the amp/pre-amp domain, but some people may be seeking to moisten their systems with an expensive full-tube-complement DAC. So, these DACs may be intended to achieve very different things.

Perhaps this is where I ask @djones51 if he may be overstating the value of a totally transparent DAC when some people have systems that lean dry, or very dry...? Perhaps the DAC is where the search for accuracy must be redeemed by some moisture, or some pixie-dust?

Objectivists are often Chintziphiles. No point in arguing with them. 

The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile. 

@grannyring Sad but true. When I'm building I also spend time on diyaudio and the difference is so stark. People genuinely trying to help each other vs. the cock fights that always break out here. 

That said, if there's a better place to find out about new gear, I don't know it. I wish we could just fix the culture here.

Thanks for all your contributions. I've just about finished replacing all the signal wire and rca connectors throughout my system and thought about you when I gave it a new title:  "Nothing is Sacred."

Thanks for all your posts and for encouraging people to treat our equipment like the platform it is and not a piece of jewelry. And let me know if you ever find an alternative community...

Those are some pretty awesome statements, @cal3713 and @douglas_schroeder and @grannyring 

Your tactic definitely pinches the sarcasm nerve, in me. 

So, maybe we can be clear here: there is no space here for conversations that get at the heart of value questions relative to your bottom line? 

I didn't realize there would be police of this kind, in here, but there certainly is... 

Let's at least talk, for a moment, as "men," as they once said. 

I suppose you could have simply tossed me out, so why are you playing with me? Why the group escort? 

Am I not permitted herein to inquire as to the actual significance of claims related to power supply, OP amps, and compression in the output impression of low cost DACs? This would appear to me to be an excellent place to truly get at these issues, to learn about them, etc...