2. speakers
  3. 159915-139027

Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
audiokinesis
2,743 posts
 
@Erik_squires wrote: 

" The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence." 

This is what's called a "straw man argument", and is a fallacy.  Here's the definition for anyone not familiar with the term: 

"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making." 

Duke
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,308 posts
 
Bass becomes more directional at higher frequencies so if sub is covering higher bass frequencies there is advantage to two subs located near speakers for better stereo imaging same as if teh woofers in the main were covering those.   Different reason for two versus 1 than DBA.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,308 posts
 
Check out a sub like this Klipsch I use with KEF ls50’s:

https://www.klipsch.com/products/sw-308-subwoofer

Forward firing active driver + two passive radiators one firing left and one firing right. That provides some bass distribution benefits similar to multiple subs in an array but from a single compact box. Something to consider for those interested in the bass array concept but not fond of the idea of having to tackle multiple physical subs. Not the same thing but a step in that direction that is no harder than any other single box sub to set up.  A "swarm" of  3 in 1 per se.

Ag insider logo xs@2x
cleeds
5,960 posts
 
audiokinesis
@Erik_squires wrote:

" The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence."

This is what’s called a "straw man argument", and is a fallacy. Here’s the definition ...
No, it’s not a straw man argument at all, because some of these "swarm" advocates have argued just that, and have done so repeatedly. Here’s one just from this thread:
millercarbon
Surely no one with the room, who takes the time to compare, would ever choose anything else. No one has. No one ever will. The difference is so night and day that Duke had one customer with a $30k subwoofer budget decide to buy the Swarm. Not even a $30k sub can match a $3k Swarm.
So there’s your answer ... Because since we all know no one or two subs can ever touch a DBA, then not only do the high-end dealers make money selling you the one sub that can’t work, they get to sell you another ... sinnce you already know DBA works, and yet is not widely adopted, then you know how good they are at selling audiophiles on stories ... Why would anyone buy a sub? They don’t. They buy a story

brownsfan
1,508 posts
 
People who are in the business of selling are going to promote what they sell, and more often than not, are going to downplay products that they do not sell.   Is there a single Magico dealer in the world who would tell you that Wilson makes better speakers?  

As far as "fanboy" comments that may appear hyperbolic, I suspect most of us can empathize with a person who has worked hard and long to optimize their system, who are eloquent in praise of a key element in that painful optimization effort.  I rarely take anything I read on Audiogon as gospel truth.  You just need to temper what you read sometimes. 

I have a dedicated listening room that I have been working on for a while.  I've carefully optimized speaker and main listening position, and added a fair amount of room treatment.  The room is an order of magnitude better than it was when I started, but I've gone as far as those efforts can take me.  Further improvements will require equalization or a distributed bass array. 

I made a decision to give the Swarm system a try after reading the Earl Geddes publications that explain the theoretical underpinnings of the distributed array approach.  I'm still waiting for delivery, so I can't comment based on experience, but in my view, Ralph hit the nail on the head.
Those that denigrate a distributed bass array are apparently simply ignorant of its advantages. Many dealers don't sell them, so their comments can be sidelined safely enough.
The DBA approach just makes too much sense for anyone to dismiss a priori, especially if that dismissal comes from someone who makes a ton of money selling REL subs. 

I'm still waiting for delivery of the Swarm, so I can't comment based on experience.  The Swarm may not do what I am hoping it will do, but if it does not significantly improve bass response in my particular room, that doesn't invalidate the approach.   There are no products that are the right choice for every situation. 




More to discover