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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
tyray
609 posts
 
Why don’t you guys (and gals) get together and have a respectful subwoofer shootout? I’m sure you all can find the time during these pandemic times? And I’m sure someone has a audio studio for all of you to use? You can then test each others hypotheses, scientific principles, use the audio test equipment to set up your equipment and record everything for posterity and science.

Come on? Are you kidding me? You’d have the entire AUDIO GLOBE wanting to see this happen similar to a heavyweight prize fight! You could settle this once and for all in a friendly, fun way like you ALL used to do when we were just kids.

Who ever loses buys the beer (or wine) and the experience itself will be videoed. Also you just might make a friend or two in the process. I would rent that video, or well at least check it out on youtube.

And even if you don’t videotape the event at least have the shootout! Know we'll see who'll man up.
audiokinesis
2,743 posts
 
Tyray suggested: "Why don’t you guys (and gals) get together and have a respectful subwoofer shoot out... test each others hypotheses, scientific principles, use the audio test equipment to set up your equipment and record everything for posterity and science."

I just re-read the thread and it looks to me like nobody is saying the science behind a distributed multisub system is bogus. Some criticize its advocates, some say dipoles work better (which they do in some ways and not in others) or that fixing the room comes first, and several have said it’s too impractical.

But not even Erik’s blog page disputes the technical merits of the idea. Quoting:

"To oversimplify, the DBA [Distributed Bass Array] or Audio Kinesis Swarm uses four subwoofers to cancel room modes. Please read details directly from the vendor as I am not a fan and therefore won’t do it justice.

"While I was a fan of this idea due to the innovation and possibilities it offered I never really warmed to it due to the physical complexity. For me, I want my system simpler, smaller, and tripling the number of speakers in my home has no appeal at all. I am no longer a fan of this idea due to the fan boys and how cultish they have become."

I don’t see any of these objections going away if a distributed multisub system "works as advertised" because none of them are based on the premise that it doesn’t.

Duke
veerossi
169 posts
 
Back when I was still gathering info about sub setups, I mentioned SWARM and DEBRA bass array to the local store where I buy my gear from. I had one sub, then two subs, then new main speakers with no subs and was then looking to go with the DEBRA for my new mains (Tannoy Turnberry Prestige GR’s) The sales person gave me a facial expression which communicated he thought I was over complicating this whole sub thing. After his dismissive glance, he presented: “You only need 2 good REL subs to get the bass right.” I’m glad I didn’t go that route. My setup is different from the standard DEBRA though: I’m still unclear how to setup the phasing on the sub amps since my DEBRA uses 2 Qty of the SA1000 subs amps instead of one to drive the 4 subs. It’s supposed to have some benefit for phasing. All I know is it kicks some serious ass compared to any of my previous setups. Bass issue resolved for me!
I’d bet if Duke and James joined forces with REL, they would sell the crap out of a wireless/ self-powered 4 sub bass array.
And- oh, if REL (masters of all things subwoofer) is selling a sub array $priced it to the moon, then it must be good, right? Be a good little audiophile sheep and just agree with the big guy. Do as they tell you to do: follow instructions blindly. Take your REL subs to the counter and swipe your card on the way out. “Thank you and have a great day.” I think a lot of naysayers follow the well beaten path. That is until some big company realizes they can steal the sub array idea to make it their own, make it more marketable and ultimately scoop up all the cash on the table and screw-over the people who put in the real work to get this distributed bass array out there in the first place. It’s just a matter of time (in my mind) before more people start to climb aboard the DIstributed Bass-Array-party boat. Once a REL or JL jump in to the sub array market, you watch how many they will sell, and also watch the forums flourish with “yes” chatter afterwards.
I forgot who posted it, but I’m game for anyone who wants to do the video for testing 1,2,3 vs 4 subs at my house. I’m always enthusiastic, curious and eager to learn. I’m in Southern California BTW and wear mask/ social distance.  
To be clear, I have no pony in this race. I don’t care who wins, I’m in it for the learning experience and to add to my personal knowledge base. Maybe for once someone can put out good advice based on several people’s real life experiences and some kind of measurements instead of forum banter or “professional” reviewers who I simply most of the time do not trust. They are tangled in a conflict of interest and are flawed for this reason. 
tyray
609 posts
 

Uh -Oh! Looks like we got 2 contestants already! Duke and veerossi.
And veerossi wants bring out the big guns - The DEBRA’s! Now I know you all know about the SWARM, but let me introduce you to the DEBRA’s.

https://jamesromeyn.com/audiokinesis-speaker-models/debra/

What’s that I hear - crickets?
mitch2
4,007 posts
 
@veerossi 
I’d bet if Duke and James joined forces with REL, they would sell the crap out of a wireless/ self-powered 4 sub bass array.
Your comment made me think of two reasons I have not tried a DBA yet, and something Duke (or somebody) could work on to help those of us who already own and use two great sounding subs:
  • first, I do not want to buy a new 4 sub set-up since I already have two really nice Aerial SW-12 subs
  • second, my room is already wired with dedicated electrical lines/outlets and all my system wiring is against one wall
  • however, I would be very interested in adding just two subs for the purpose of smoothing out the bass response and more evenly loading the room
  • I would also be interested if I could do this without purchasing two more relatively expensive SW-12s but rather if I could use different, less expensive subs
  • I would be even more interested if those two additional subs could receive their signal wirelessly since that would take away one of my biggest problems of how to get a signal to them 
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