Ahh yes. Thanks Duke!
Oz
Oz
Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world
I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's.
My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)
Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm?
My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)
Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm?
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- 188 posts total
Oz, you are quite welcome. Cleeds wrote: " But that is exactly the claim that some have made: " Do you really mean "EXACTLY"? Because imo that is open to dispute. Not that I necessarily think squabbling about the meanings and implications of words and sentences will settle anything. How about this: Cleeds, can you articulate the core of what your objection is? THAT might be worth talking about, as we might be able to reach mutual understanding. Duke |
@tyray Your above quote from Aerial’s Michael Kelly is very similar to a multiple sub white paper excerpt here:Earl Geddes was Manager of Advanced Audio at Ford Motor Company here in Michigan and has a PhD in Acoustics, while his wife (and partner in their mostly dormant company GedLee) Lidia has a PhD in Audiology and teaches at Eastern Michigan University. Earl’s Ph.D thesis was on the acoustics of low frequencies in small rooms, so he should know a thing or two about subwoofers and bass behavior in audio rooms. If you want a fun read, take a look at their Dagogo interview from June of 2012. Below the link, I have included some interesting quotes from the interview that apply to the issues discussed in these Audiogon threads every week. https://www.dagogo.com/an-interview-with-dr-earl-geddes-of-gedlee-llc/ Quotes from the interview:
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Let’s clear up a few things, Vandersteen has been offering a unique powered bass system w 11 bands of Analogue EQ for at least 20 years now. Of course as an advocate of real science Richard is familiar w Geddes research and his own that formed the basis of his unique design. In fact those paying attention will remember Richard passing his congratulations on to Duke for his work and award. You can of course use multiple subs in the Vandersteen ecosystem of high passed speakers with built in or external subs. Perhaps some will recall system 9 subs at Munich ( best of show sound ). The Vandy way preserves the transfer function of your main amp, has more cut than boost, the 11 band EQ is NOT octave based but based on empirical sampling of typical listening room nodes, and super importantly designed to give fantastic bass at the listening position ( gee where the rest of the stereo image is - for a company fanatical about time and phase since 1977 imaging is a super high priority. Finally in my system photos you can see an RTA photo of bass fundamentals and harmonics.... image destruction starts below 200 HZ, so you might want to watch that sub integration and placement carefully. oh ya, of course I have heard a DBA :-) |
- 188 posts total