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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
dawgbyte's avatar
dawgbyte
325 posts
 
"The more things change, the more they change." William Shakespeare

I have two 15" Rel subs. One is setup at the front of the room on the right hand side and the other is facing towards the front on the left hand side of the room. I'm sure there's something better out there, but I can't imagine spending the money to try and surpass what I have.
twoleftears's avatar
twoleftears
5,317 posts
 
@northman  Excellent observation!!  Mix-and-match subs, but the orientation in the socket of the after-market fuse is absolutely crucial.
noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
northman:
" And yet the discussion of multiple-sub array contains almost none of this fastidiousness. It's what academics would call a different discourse. It's by far the most casual approach to sound out here: mix and match inexpensive subs. What brand of subs? It doesn't really matter. What size? Also doesn't really matter. Should they be the same? Maybe, but it doesn't really matter. Where placed? It doesn't matter nearly as much as a single or pair. Connections, watts, power source? Doesn't really matter, relatively speaking.

My point is that, as an outsider to these technologies, the tenor of the discussion is completely different. It's not only asking audiophiles to consider a new approach to sound reproduction but asking them to consider a completely different way of thinking about, and talking about, the hobby."

  Hello northman,
     
     Good points.  There actually is a lot of technical, fastidious, scientific and interesting reading material available on-line, supporting the effectiveness of utilizing multiple subs and distributed bass arrays (DBAs) in home audio sized room environments, if you desire to learn more on the subject.  
     I suggest googling the writings of Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Floyd Toole, Todd Welti of Harman International and Duke LeJeune of Audio Kinesis for a good sampling.  You could also google topics such as "the use of multiple subs for home audio", "distributed bass arrays",  " how to obtain better bass performance" along with other topics you may be interested in.
     The DBA and multiple sub concepts are not really new but the use of subs in home audio has been traditionally shunned by many 'audio purists' in this hobby ever since I started began my journey in it about 45 yrs ago.
     I've never felt the need to restrict my personal audio knowledge, experiences and adventures to the confines of audio purist approved traditional lore, tropes and dogmas.  I've continued to attempt to maintain an open mind, listen well to others' experiences and tried to gain knowledge through personal experience whenever possible.
     I suggest you attempt to do the same since we all ultimately discover our own personal truths and preferences along the way.  I've even found my personal truths and preferences to change and evolve over time utilizing the simple, honest and unfettered approach of judging things on their merits and calling them as you hear or see them
     There's no denying there'll be a lot to see, learn, experience, reject and object along your personal audio/video  journey. Enjoy the journey  and I hope you don't mind if I refer to you as 'tiger', 'sparky' or 'young grasshopper' a few times along the way.

Later,
  Tim
  
     
northman OP
237 posts
 
Tim, "young grasshopper" works just fine. At nearly 60, I'm well past my meridian but always young at heart. My wife might use the word "immature," and she wouldn't be alone. 

The funny thing is that I've haunted stereo stores from New Haven to Maine since I was 16, and I've owned plenty of nice equipment (McIntosh tube amps, Maggies, Bryston, Nakamichi decks, CAL Audio, etc) but I've never taken the deep dive. I can feel myself coming over to the dark side...
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
There's something else, however, that's difficult for me to wrap my mind around. This forum insists on the importance of every detail, the importance of micromanaging every cable terminal and power source. Which is better for speaker cable elevation, cedar blocks or maple blocks? Where does one get just the right marble or granite for a speaker base? What color interconnects are the most transparent? (Blue ... no ... yellowwwwwwww!)

As me your questions OP, I am not afraid! 

You gest (I hope) but these are all serious questions. Well maybe not the color. But all the other stuff, yes it matters. Not just saying that. Actually tried and compared different wood, elevators, etc.  

And yet the discussion of multiple-sub array contains almost none of this fastidiousness. It's what academics would call a different discourse. It's by far the most casual approach to sound out here: mix and match inexpensive subs. What brand of subs? It doesn't really matter. What size? Also doesn't really matter. Should they be the same? Maybe, but it doesn't really matter. Where placed? It doesn't matter nearly as much as a single or pair. Connections, watts, power source? Doesn't really matter, relatively speaking.

My point is that, as an outsider to these technologies, the tenor of the discussion is completely different.
Good, grasshopper!

https://youtu.be/gbNCBVzPYak?t=56

There's two main reasons for this. One being the advantages of DBA are so overwhelming they tend to swamp the usual differences between subs. Things like size and power do matter. Its much better to have four really powerful high quality subs than four puny little cheap ones. Just don't be surprised if those four little ones kick butt on one big one that is much more expensive and powerful, even if it measures better. Its still just one. 

The other main reason is human beings simply do not hear very low the same as very high. Midrange and treble we localize to within a fraction of an inch. 30 Hz we have no idea whatsoever where its coming from. High frequencies we hear instantly. Low bass, less than a full wave and we don't hear anything at all. Finally there's the equal loudness thing. Really low bass doesn't even register until its much louder than the levels at which we can clearly hear midrange.  

Add all these up and it pretty well answers all your questions. It also answers the question of why its not more widely adopted. DBA shines a light on the fact our hearing is completely different with low frequencies than high. Therefore our system setup must take these two widely diverging aspects into account. Its a bit of a mental challenge. This may be the time to switch to a more modern movie metaphor and perform a Jedi mind trick.
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