2. speakers
  3. 159915-139027

Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
northman OP
257 posts
 
Tim, "young grasshopper" works just fine. At nearly 60, I'm well past my meridian but always young at heart. My wife might use the word "immature," and she wouldn't be alone. 

The funny thing is that I've haunted stereo stores from New Haven to Maine since I was 16, and I've owned plenty of nice equipment (McIntosh tube amps, Maggies, Bryston, Nakamichi decks, CAL Audio, etc) but I've never taken the deep dive. I can feel myself coming over to the dark side...
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
There's something else, however, that's difficult for me to wrap my mind around. This forum insists on the importance of every detail, the importance of micromanaging every cable terminal and power source. Which is better for speaker cable elevation, cedar blocks or maple blocks? Where does one get just the right marble or granite for a speaker base? What color interconnects are the most transparent? (Blue ... no ... yellowwwwwwww!)

As me your questions OP, I am not afraid! 

You gest (I hope) but these are all serious questions. Well maybe not the color. But all the other stuff, yes it matters. Not just saying that. Actually tried and compared different wood, elevators, etc.  

And yet the discussion of multiple-sub array contains almost none of this fastidiousness. It's what academics would call a different discourse. It's by far the most casual approach to sound out here: mix and match inexpensive subs. What brand of subs? It doesn't really matter. What size? Also doesn't really matter. Should they be the same? Maybe, but it doesn't really matter. Where placed? It doesn't matter nearly as much as a single or pair. Connections, watts, power source? Doesn't really matter, relatively speaking.

My point is that, as an outsider to these technologies, the tenor of the discussion is completely different.
Good, grasshopper!

https://youtu.be/gbNCBVzPYak?t=56

There's two main reasons for this. One being the advantages of DBA are so overwhelming they tend to swamp the usual differences between subs. Things like size and power do matter. Its much better to have four really powerful high quality subs than four puny little cheap ones. Just don't be surprised if those four little ones kick butt on one big one that is much more expensive and powerful, even if it measures better. Its still just one. 

The other main reason is human beings simply do not hear very low the same as very high. Midrange and treble we localize to within a fraction of an inch. 30 Hz we have no idea whatsoever where its coming from. High frequencies we hear instantly. Low bass, less than a full wave and we don't hear anything at all. Finally there's the equal loudness thing. Really low bass doesn't even register until its much louder than the levels at which we can clearly hear midrange.  

Add all these up and it pretty well answers all your questions. It also answers the question of why its not more widely adopted. DBA shines a light on the fact our hearing is completely different with low frequencies than high. Therefore our system setup must take these two widely diverging aspects into account. Its a bit of a mental challenge. This may be the time to switch to a more modern movie metaphor and perform a Jedi mind trick.
tomic601's avatar
tomic601
12,931 posts
 
Things did not end well for Jaco. I love his playing early on before madness set in. He was homeless - Grace, peace compassion upon them. 
For students of the art, you might look into dual cone / dual voicecoil push pull drivers with a honeycomb core.... I listen to just such a hyper linear animal. You can almost get there in am opposed driver narrow cabinet... almost
tony1954's avatar
tony1954
1,053 posts
 
@audiotroy

That's very nice, but what exactly does that have to do with what the OP was asking?Self promotion is tacky at best.


dannad
152 posts
 
Good bass is hard, really hard in most rooms. Bass arrays simple make good bass easier. There should be special emphasis on good. They do not magically create great bass, but then it is the rare audiophile with great bass.

There are two types of people, those who don't think low frequency bass is directional and accept that bass arrays must work, and those that think bass is directional and who put subs near their speakers invariably creating combing effects when there is bass leakage to higher frequencies either directly or through distortion that invariable is worse than any issues with directionality from a bass array.

Bass arrays by reducing peaks can even improve decay time and parasitic environmental vibration.


Audiophiles like to talk about fast bass, and then will go into great detail about damping factor, speaker design, woofer diameter and any number of other phantom impacts. Most of the perceived "speed" of bass is room decay. If you want truly fast bass, you have to address your room.  A bass array will help you get there, but can't solve all room issues. Most factory car audio systems have faster bass than high end home systems. Those windows may be reflective, but an automotive interior is filled with a lot of absorptive material by volume not to mention material specifically for sound deadening. Listen to how fast the bass is next time you are in the car.
More to discover