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vinyl versus digital redux

Has anyone compared the sound of vinyl with the sound of digital converted from a vinyl intermediary ?

I am referring to 'rips' of vinyl made with high end, high quality vinyl playback systems, with
conversion to high resolution digital.
I find it nearly impossible to distinguish the two results.
The digital rip of a vinyl record sounds identical...or very nearly so...to direct playback of the vinyl.

If one has 'experienced' the foregoing, one might question why digital made without the intermediary of vinyl sounds so different from vinyl.   A detective story ?

We are talking about vinyl made by ADC (analog to digital conversion) of an amplified microphone signal and re-conversion to analog for output to the record cutting lathe, or from analog tape recording of an amplified microphone signal, and then....as above...via ADCl and back to analog for output to the cutting lathe.

Of course vinyl can be and is 'cut' (pressings made from 'stamper' copies the 'master' cut in lacquer) without digital intermediary.  Such practice is apparently uncommon, and ?? identified as such by the 'label' (production)

Has anyone compared vinyl and high resolution digital (downloads) albums offered by the same 'label' of the same performance ?  Granted, digital versus vinyl difference should diminish with higher digital resolution.   Sound waves are sine waves....air waves do not 'travel' in digital bits.    A digital signal cannot be more than an approximation of a sine wave, but a closer approximation as potential digital resolution (equating to bit depth times sampling frequency) increases.

If vinyl and digital well made from vinyl intermediary sound almost identical, and If vinyl and digital not made via vinyl intermediary sound quite different, what is the source of this difference ? 

Could it reside....I'll skip the sound processing stages (including RIAA equalization)...in the electro-mechanical process imparting the signal to the vinyl groove ?

Is there analogy with speaker cone material and the need for a degree of self-damping ?
Were self-damping not to some extent desirable, would not all speaker cones, from tweeter to sub-woofer, be made of materials where stiffness to weight ratio was of sole importance ?

Thanks for any comments.
seventies
seventies OP
67 posts
 
Cleeds,

My intent in this thread was to ascertain and discuss the validity of vinyl sound achieved without vinyl.
Increased measurable distortion and decreased dynamic range inherent in vinyl playback are, I believe, hard to dispute.
Various explanations have been offered as to why some prefer the sound of playback from vinyl.
I had no intent of adding to those explanations.
If for you, Cleeds, high quality (with all that implies) music reproduction with and reproduction without intermediary of vinyl are indistinguishable or nearly so, "read no further".... 
If, conversely, they are quite DISTINGUISHABLE, and if high quality digital reproduction of vinyl playback is sonically INDISTINGUISHABLE from direct vinyl playback, why not let music companies do the playback, purchase the digital result, and sidestep the expense and hassle of direct vinyl playback ?
This approach risks financial compromise of the resurgent vinyl production and home vinyl playback components of the music reproduction industry.
May I quite genuinely ask if you or other readers of this 'thread' are aware of letters to audiophile magazines or websites voicing similar thoughts ?
I appreciate your input and your helping me to verbalize these ideas.
Seventies 
williewonka
3,082 posts
 
@seventies - what appears to be something that may be "quite achievable", certainly from a technical perspective
- I think that it would be a considerable undertaking for any record label to setup yet another "stream" of source material to package and store (if on CD), distribute and market.

And that’s before you factor in which sample rates to provide

So what appears to be a relatively simple undertaking, may actually may turn out to be something few labels would even consider.

Generally - Record Exec’s are there to make money - fast!
- and today, spinning of a vinyl stream of business from a digital source is relatively easy

Spinning off a digital source from a vinyl replay would probably be considered as - NOT required, NOT profitable or even sensible, by those same Record Exec’s - just to cater to "a few" audiophiles

Jeton is a very specialized company and provide highly specialized product to a select few - not the mode of operation of your more normal record companies

High-res digital audio, well above 24/192, is readily available from many sites and the trend will continue to even higher rates. But even so, the companies thqt offer high res digital are not so "mainstream" - I'm thinking apple here :-)

I think higher-res digital may probably satisfy the vast majority of audiophiles

I also think for the "kids of today" the more recent "allure of vinyl" has far more to do with it being unique, as opposed to sounding superior
- they just like to have something different to show off to their friends
- they also like those other traits of vinyl, such as the artwork and the sleeve content.
- and - most vinyl today comes with a convenient digital download - best of both worlds

At least - that is my own personal view of this particular line of thought.

Cheers - Steve

seventies OP
67 posts
 
Cleeds,
With all those thoughts I largely or entirely agree.
Please let me know if you elsewhere come upon similar discussion, this being a relatively specific discussion.   There are bits and pieces, but where to find a more comprehensive review ?
Meanwhile, my 'own personal view' is focused on DXD as a PCM/DSD 'one format suits all high resolution seekers' solution.
Another topic I'm happy to discuss.
Again thanks,
'Seventies'
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cleeds
6,026 posts
 
seventies
Increased measurable distortion and decreased dynamic range inherent in vinyl playback are, I believe, hard to dispute.
The potential dynamic range of the LP format exceeds that which most music requires. That was true even before the loudness wars, which have only further reduced dynamic range. If you have any doubts about that, check the dynamic range database.

The distortions that are inherent in LP playback can often be reduced to levels that are essentially inaudible, and that’s why sometimes the best version of a particular recording is the one from LP. At their very best, the results from LP and digital are very, very close. So your wish to obtain the quality of "vinyl playback" without using a turntable doesn’t really make any sense.

As I mentioned previously, some people enjoy the warm, euphonic, tubey distortion they can get by using sonically colored turntables, pickup arms, cartridges and phono sections. Perhaps that’s the sound you’d like to achieve using only digital playback.

mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
There is more to vinyl than just the sound. There is the collection and handling of records. There is no way to duplicate this digitally even if you can duplicate the sound digitally. Those of you who do not think you can have obviously not tried it. Don't believe me. Michael Fremer has commented on this subject numerous times and uses the process for demonstration all the time. Personally, I do not record my records to the hard drive. It takes way to much time and effort. I'm just fine with playing my records the old fashioned way. There is a mystique in the process. Watching the record spin in wonder that such a crude process could sound so good. 
Buy the way Cleeds, all vinyl playback systems are sonically colored and euphORic. Reality is sometimes a hard pill tp swallow. 
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