Thiel Owners


Guys-

I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
128x128jafant
@thieliste I know about those 2 DACs. I am looking at a bit lower cost, so the Halo Spring Level 3 and the Denafrips Terminator +.  If I were to spend over $10K (I won't for a DAC) I think it would be the non-R2R Mola Mola Tambaqui. I have spent $1580 on a new Benchmark DAC3B and I have no complaints other than needing a second DAC in the future.

I was also waiting on the new Luxman chip based DAC that is in their uber SACD player. The specs are amazing and the sound is supposed to be very analog. My main thing nowadays with electronics is that they have to be close to as quiet as my Benchmark HPA4 preamp. For me that makes all the difference in the world because I can hear the silence.

@unsound  That harlequin effect is beyond my brain power. I looked it up online but could not find anything about it. In University, I took a class on some subject that discussed  the following book,

https://www.amazon.com/Visual-Display-Quantitative-Information/dp/0961392142/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&...

There were some very interesting visualization issues described in that book. I still have that book and tried to look up the harlequin effect, no luck.
Regarding driver wiring: there is a simple trick if you have a multimeter. Get access to the driver terminals, feed a signal to the speaker. Measure the AC voltages at the terminals. The woofer should be the highest, midrange much less and tweeter less than that. If a tweeter shows higher voltage than the mid, it is mis-wired from the crossover. Get Rob’s help to straighten it out.

Regarding cabinet construction. Thiel speaker walls have always been multi-laminates. Solid woods are less than desirable due to variable, under-damped and unpredictable resonance modes. The outer layer is a face veneer, matched by an interior backing veneer, each about 0.020" thick (5 pieces of paper). The 3.7 and 2.7 share their substrate panel which is an engineered sandwich of birch and other veneers glued into the curved shape under heat and pressure. In a historical context, that sandwich was envisioned from the beginning; it just took time to develop into a real product.

In the 03 development in 1978, we landed on Baltic Birch plywood as the substrate. (In fact we used FinPly, a higher quality alternative.) That BB/FP is twice as stiff as Particle Board and 3x as stiff as MDF. But it is under-damped and unpredictable in its resonance modes. Over the years, I messed with making our own build-ups, including bending the panels, which solves most of the inherent panel movement. But, for a small company making moderately priced products, those technologies were beyond our reach. The CS2, 3 and 3.5 used 1-1/8" industrial particle board plus face and back veneers for an extremely rigid and well damped panel. When we developed CNC capacity in the late 80s, we converted to MDF because we could pack engineered shelf braces into the construction. Check out the cutaway in the Stereophile review of the CS2.2, which was our first product designed for CNC manufacture. Nonetheless those well-braced MDF cabinets exhibit some resonances, and quieter is better. For the 3.7, Thiel found a subcontractor in Atlanta to make the unfaced custom curved panels. Thiel added the face/back veneers in-house with a custom curved mold press. That same panel is trimmed for the 2.7. The precision machining, including landings for the internal braces, were done on Thiel’s custom CNC.

Regarding drivers - Thiel designed its own drivers beginning in the early 80s for the CS3 introduced in 1983, as co-developments with Vifa of Denmark. Our deal was that Jim would design what Vifa could manufacture and offer to the larger market to amortize their development and tooling costs. That was unique in the industry and many Thiel design innovations worked their way into generic Scandinavian offerings. When our requirements eclipsed those of the broader market, we had to create our own driver-making capability, not because we wanted to, but because that was the only way we could get what Jim wanted. The CS5 (1989) drivers were (modified) off the shelf, except for our exclusive UltraTweeter. The following CS2.2 and CS3.6 were completely Thiel-designed x Vifa-made for us exclusively. All further products’ drivers were built in-house. By the time the 3.7 was designed in the mid 00s, Jim’s illness had progressed, and ways were developed for outsourcing most critical parts. Thiel, along with Vifa, ScanSpeak and others, co-developed FST as a high-quality Chinese driver source. Things change, and FST became the only feasible way to make those custom flat diaphragms. Many of the high-end Scandinavian drivers are coming from FST and other Chinese suppliers. Most of Thiel’s products since the mid 90s have early drivers built in-house and later drivers sourced from FST. In most cases they are equivalent, but in some cases, like the PowerDriver in the PowerPoint, etc. the tweeter module can no longer be replaced separately. Thiel could pull off that stunt in-house, but FST insisted it couldn’t be done. And you can’t make a supplier do what can’t be done.
unsound
yyzsantabarbara got me thinking,
Tom wrote
" In a 15' wide space, I would rather have 6' between speakers with 4.5' to side walls, than to have 8' between and only 3.5 aside . "
that got me trying .

Since owning these speakers I've been stubborn about positioning them 
from  8ft to 8ft 8in  apart , and from 8ft to 8ft 9in from my ears .
The room is 13ft 1in wide and listening length is 10ft 9in ,
so speaker movement is limited .
I've also tried ever degree of toe-in .

I thought about what makes the 10ft distance to the listeners ears
and 8ft apart as the ideal triangle and why didn't the 8ft to the listener and 8ft apart ( withor without toe-in ) did'nt make me shout WOW . 
The 8ft equilateral triangle gives one a 60 deg angle listener to speaker ,
the isosceles traingle with the speakers 10ft from listener is 47deg .
For the first time I moved the speakers closer than 8ft ,
I now have 39in to the outside wall and 33in to the front wall
with a listening distance of 96in , the center to center is now 82in .
The listening angle is 50.5 deg and the sound is fantastic !
2 gains , less reflection distortion and much wider sound stage .
I've tested the reflection gain by taking accoustic panels and temporarly placing them in the approx location , small gain but enough that I'll still buy 2 more panels to hang .

I believe the greatest gain was the listening angle .
With the speakers centers at 8ft and listening angle at 60 deg
I didn't have much space left for soundsatge outside the speakers 
but with the speaker centers at 6ft 10in and listening angle of 50 deg
I feel that this is as close to the listening experience that one would have 
if you could be sitting at the ideal postion of 10ft from the speakers that are 8ft apart and you had over 4 ft to the outside walls .

It's been said before and I'll say it again ,
Thank You Tom for your insight , knowledge and experience .
Rob












   
@yyzsantabarbara, I think you read too much into my previous post, I merely meant that with their contrasting color quadrants that they looked like a harlequin. 
@tomthiel I have been in contact with Rob and I have already done the multimeter test. I think the wiring was revered both on the wires coming out of the crossover and also the connection to both midrange and tweeter terminals. A real mess up. I have not confirmed the wires coming out of the crossover yet with Rob but based on the Ohm numbers recorded and what Rob told me to expect, it looks like it was wired in the wrong manner. So I believe my COAX is damaged. I just bought 2 new black COAXs from Rob last week and will have this issue put to bed. What a nightmare.

@unsound Yes, I over thought it. I must also say I am not the biggest fan of that contrast either. I am likely going to do a solid matte paint job in the upcoming week.