Teach me about cartridge 'retipping'

I’m glad @needlestein jumped aboard here, with some fresh views on a subject that has been beaten to death here with the same old arguments.
Question for @chakster - I know you favor vintage cartridges, I have a friend who is also a big believer in them and says he is able to find old stock cartridges with little to no wear. Leaving aside the difficulty of determining this without a microscope and the knowledge of what the stylus shape should be in the first place, how does one avoid the hardening of the suspension parts over time?

I’ve used various retippers over the years from Peter, to A.J. Van den Hul to Steve Leung, for various cartridges, involving different kinds of work- in one instance, Peter replaced the stylus on a high end moving coil cartridge that was worn but retained the original cantilever.
More frequently, I’ll simply upgrade a cartridge rather than retip it. I did have Koetsu retip a Jade Platinum and when the other Koetsu I have reaches the end of its useful life, I’ll probably have that rebuilt by Koetsu- the cost is high, but is less costly than buying a new Koetsu (it would seem that the more expensive the Koetsu, the smaller the relative cost of rebuild is, no?)
Bill Hart
PS @Teo_Audio-- can you tell us more about this low cost cartridge you are introducing? I checked your website and did not see any mention of it.
Thanks.

Question for @chakster - I know you favor vintage cartridges, I have a friend who is also a big believer in them and says he is able to find old stock cartridges with little to no wear. Leaving aside the difficulty of determining this without a microscope and the knowledge of what the stylus shape should be in the first place, how does one avoid the hardening of the suspension parts over time?

You cartridge can be inspected by PRO if you wish to (for about $30), but i trust my ears, if a cartridge sound great I don’t need an inspection under microscope, I have a several macro lens for iPhone, my ears, some nice test records and music (and a bunch of amazing cartridges to compare one sample to another in a proper sound system or using headphones).

My passion is MM or MI cartridges, not vintage LOMC (even if I have some). Out of about 60 cartridges only 2 used samples were bad - this is my own experience (one of them is Technics EPS 100 and 205 series, another one is Glanz 71). The rest of the cartridges is a pure joy!

Nothing wrong with rubber damper if you know the right manufacturers. You must look for specific models of cartridges or certain brands. It’s about experience and knowledge.

You can make a stop list of cartridges / brands too. Technics is one of them! Suspension is softened, not hardened. Those cartridges must be avoided. At the same time most of the vintage MM are high compliance, if you believe that rubber damper can be stiffer in time then put your cartridge on Hi-Fi News TEST LP and measure resonance (and compliance). Even if (in theory) an old 40cu cartridge is 30cu now, this is still high compliance and nothing wrong with that! If you think a low compliance cartridge suspension is too stiff over the years then i want to remind you about FR-7fz which is a very low compliance LOMC with sealed suspension that last forever! One of the best low compliance LOMC in my opinion.

If you think a high compliance MM cartridge became a low compliance (which is impossible) then throw away that junk stylus, buy original replacement stylus in perfect condition and keep on using this cart. Maybe you lose $300 on that OG stylus, but a third party re-tip will cost about the same. 

I must admit that my journey into the world of vintage top of the line cartridges started after I tried some of the most expensive high-end LOMC cartridges with a price tag up to $5k.

On audiogon many people referring to vintage MM cartridges they bought and used 40 years ago, this opinion is irrelevant today, simply because of the faulty memories (it’s impossible to remember a sound character of a cartridge you tried when you was 30 years younger, also the system at that time is not what we have today).

Dear @needlestein :  Enligthed overall information for all of us but for the person you posted because he " forgoted " to tell you he in reality is a seller and that's what he does.

Years ago when I started to buy MM/MI cartridges I bougth " hundreds " of them to test it and discover which ones were the better performers.

All the samples came used or NOS ones and in several models I had to buy 3-4 samples of the same models because even that the sellers said were ok it was not in that way but I had faulty samples ( several. ) not only with the used ones but with NOS/sealed cartridges too.

I bougth too NOS stylus replacements and here some were ok but other did not works at the waited quality levels.

So NOS on vintage cartridges is warranty of almost nothing.

But the interesting issue is that having 2-3 in good working condition samples I started to send some of them ( the better performers ) to re-tippers ( even that the cartridges did not need it because were working fine. ) to find out if with the today better stylus shapes and better diamonds that were better skilled/manufactured than 50+ years ago and using boron cantilever instead than aluminum or beryllium or golden cantilevers and see if could be an improvement and even in the really top MM/MI vintage cartridges as the Technics EPC100C MK4 ( stand alone version. ) in all the re-tipped samples these ones performed and performs way better and I mean by a wide margin that the original cartridges, no exception all the retipped outperformed the originals.

It's an absolute false myth that the original are better that a re.-tipped one, totally false and I can prove it. Obviously that that seller always goes against re-tipping because his busine$$$ can disappears.

Many of the re-tipping wok with my cartridges were made in Germany and through vdH but I use too SS and other re-tippers as Andy to name one of them.

Where I'm against re.tipping is with the top of the line today LOMC cartridges that my advise is doing that job through the manufacturer no matters what.

J.Carr posted years ago that cartridge manufacturers always are thinking how to improve their top designs and at some times they made small changes in those cartridges with out " shout " out there because the changes are so small that does not needs a MK2 version or the like, so he posted that when we send the cartridge to the manufacturer the cartridge we receive in return not only is an original one but comes with those " small " changes that improved his quality performance and that that cartridge sounds in the way the designer planned that he test it through his self voicing work.

So, any vintage MM/MI/LOMC cartridge sample will performs with higher quality levels that before and better than ever no matters what and I'm not selling nothing but trying to help other audiophiles/music lovers that as me want it the best sounds/MUSIC reproduction quality levels.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@needlestein : About the glue usend to fix the stylus tip you are rigth too but that seller likes to intimidates/distress to the audiophiles with his photos that at the end means nothing.

I had some first hand experiences with top vintage and today cartridges where with out notice one day when the cartridge hits the LP surface we note that something is wrong and what is wrong is that the stylus tip is not " there " any more and we try to find out in the LP surface or around there but we can't see it.

This kind of experience was once with a top Audio Technica LOMC  that's a manufacturer I respect a lot and I owned/own almost all its vintage and today MM/LOMC models including the great Signet ones that's is part of the AT group.

Other experience about that comes to my mind happened in the top room/system of an Agoner and reviewer that lives in Houston when I was there for the firts time and he had mounted in his Rockport TT a Lyra Titan top of the line cartridge: when the cartridge been in touch with the LP surface both of us knew something was terrible wrong and he had no explanation about because he was listened the last nigth his system and everything were fine but " today " the problem was that the stylus tip just " gone " and we are talking of a new Lyra Titan.

I remember too that when I bougth my first Ortofon LOMC MC-2000 after less than 60 play hours one day the stylus tip just take a " fligth ".
Not many years ago when Ortofon ( by coincidence . ) puts in the market its Anna cartridge some owners had that kind of stylus tip " disappears act ".

In all those cases there were no mishandling of the cartridges, just happens.

I think that when a cartridge is/was a good performer no re-tipper can makes its sounds bad or with lower quality performance levels that when in original shape.

@jjss49  your re-tipping experiences were very good and in this thread there is no single post where one audiophile said the re-tipped cartridge sounds in poor way . All experiences are good experiences.

Now, a re-tipping job is made by a human been and no one is perfect and around of thousands of thousands re-tipped cartridges that a re-tipper did it could exist a very few that more than by " accident " than for negligence could performs not in the way we are waiting for and it's ok because no one is perfect. So, we can wait that in absolute terms never could happens a " mistake ".

The name of the game is re-tipping or buy a new today cartridge and don't take in count those sellers that want to take money from you and that try to intimidates you against re-tipping job because the origianl sounds better because this is a totally false myth.

You don't have to believe me, just try and have first hand experiences with re-tipping and you will confirm is a very good alternative.

R..

Dear @jjss49  and friends: Today the supliers of stylus tip diamonds, cantilevers, dampers and the like have way better quality parts because after 50+ years the cartridge parts industry just advanced making parts with tight and accurated specs/tolerances and in the case of diamonds/Ruby a better polish job and the like.. Today damper types is way better too.
Industry " keep walking " according the cartridge designer needs and all those means that our cartridges certainly always will be benefited by the re-tippers work and as I said no one of my retipped vintage/today cartridges sounds with lower quality level performance than when original, all performes way better so any one of you just go a head with re-tippers and re-read the @teo_audio and @needlestein posts and forgeret of all false information coming from that vintage cartridge seller.

Here a list of some re-tippers:

 info@expertstylus.co.uk

https://www.northwestanalogue.com/cartridge-repairs.html

http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/index.html

http://holisticaudio.nl/services.html

https://www.sound-smith.com/services/cartridge-rebuilding-retipping

https://vasnyinc.com/repair-service/

https://garrottbrothers.com/repairs-retipping

https://www.vandenhul.com/product/cartridge-repair-modification-re-tipping-available-services/

https://www.goldring.co.uk/goldring-cartridge-repair-refurbishment

http://anamightysound.com/cat/cartridge-retipping/

http://www.thecartridgeman.com/

http://www.london-cartridges.co.uk/

http://www.torlai.it/

http://www.audiosilente.com/riparazi…a-testine.html

https://www.tonabnehmerservice.de




Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.