subs for Sonus Faber Cremona M floor standing

Dear Johnnyb53: Design and build speakers is a totally independent audio design area, a different totally different area/subject.

Subwoofer design is a especialized area where you need different level knowledge that for speaker designs. Subwoofers IMHO is not part of the whole Speaker Area/Market is IMHO a totally independent area.

It is like a tonearm and TT: both different, with different targets and different needs.

As I said the subs subject is an especilized one and no I don't think that the Cremona subs can be better match for the Cremona speakers that and aftermarket one like the Velodynes or even the JL ones.

Till today I know no single speaker manufacturer that designed/build a subwoofer that can not only outperform but match better to his own speakers that those ones named here.

Many of you don't think so but subwoofers is not only an especialized audio area but a serious subject that needs good knowledge level to make the right decicions when we want to integrated in our home audio systems.

Yes, the subwoofer for a two channel systems is a misunderstood whole subject. I learned after several mistakes and that's why I posted what I posted and I can tell you that no one can argue about.
Till today I did not found out any person that integrated subs in true stereo fashion with afater market units that is not satisfied or left it.

Read this link where Halcro explain why he left subs:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&207&4#207

and then ( one year latter ) read this one when he take the " sub-buss " again and why:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&322&4#322

and this is only an example in that thread where there are more as are outside that thread.

My advise is try to learn about as I did and as I follow learning each day on almost every audio subject and no I'm not an expert on any audio subject, I'm sharing my first hand experiences about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Tpreaves: No, certainly I did not.

Now, when you are looking for excellence and nothing less that excellence ( I mean on system quality performance. ) then you have a hard work ( like me. ) where we have to research, test, mistakes and learn. This cycle repeats several a lot of times till we learn an achieve the target and then the next audio link.
It took me 3-4 years to learn about subs and to learn why everything we learned about was wrong.

The main lesson I learned was and is that a subs integration is not for more deep bass but to lower the IMD distortion type of the main speakers and then comes the intrinsic subs advantages but these ones are IMHO not the main targets. Main target is to lower speakers IMD: this sole " characteristic " makes the difference for the better if you can discern about.

Main differences between two or more different audio systems is the knowledge level of each one system owner.

In audio as in other life areas know-how is the name of the game.

I have a very simple " method " to improve my knowledge level in audio: I always question every audio subject know-how I had/have with simple questions: is there a better way to do it/to achieve it? or what is wrong with that? or why thing have to be in that way? or is it true?

Many audio information that we already have and that's our each one background is absolutely wrong and many are only false myths that the AHEE by convenience teached and tech to us.

The subs subject is a clear example of that: where that is not what we always thinked.

Anyway, mi message here is to improve each single day " walking " with an open mind to learn and learn from any one at any moment in any place.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Johnnyb53: Please don't misunderstood me: I'm not telling that SF does not know how to design/build subs but specialized subs manufacturer IMHO have deeper knowledge about.

Maybe the main challenge to any sub other that goes deep on the 20hz and down is to handle its frequency range with aplomb and that's means with the same aplomb/accuracy that the main speakers and this means with low low THD distortion type.

All what we have on audio and audio systems IMHO is inside DISTORTIONS whole subject. A better quality performer system that other system is better only/mainly because has lower DISTORTIONS at each link in the audio system chains than the other.

The home audio system " enemy " ( other that each one of us it self. ) to beat has a name: Distortions, as we go lower on system overall distortions as better system quality perfromance level we achieve.

When I listen an audio home systems first target is not to hear how good it sounds but look for distortions: which kind and where.

On subs is the same we have to look ( everything the same ) for the lowest subs distortions figures.

Velodyne is my bench-mark with that glorious lower than 0.5% on THD. This measure of distortion can be achieved only because Velodyne engineering level and deep research over time where brought its servo-accelerator that sense/watch 16,000 times each second the woofer movements/behavior to avoid: guess what? yes DISTORTIONS.

Johnny, when I was searching and learning about what to choose for my system I emailed to any single subs manufaturer asking for information on performance. I asked the sub THD at 120db at 20hz, 110db and 100db and guess what? no one but Velodyne gives me that information.
All answer me and give me several information around that THD measures but the true is that no one even had on hand.

Don't trust in me: send an email to SF asking the same. Could be interesting for all to read which is the Cremona sub's THD and if you can ask for its frequency response range because in its site they don't mentioned or at least I can't find out.

Yes, Johnnyb53 we have to start to learn about distortions from a different point of view that we are accustom to.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Thank you Raul. you couldn't of explained it any more eloquently. To Ebm, the Cremona M is one of the finest speakers I have had the privilege to listen to. I have heard speakers well over the 100k mark. I prefer the SF. I have always had a 15" woofer on Klipschorns so this took some getting used to. There is nothing wrong with these speakers. This is my pursuit of audio nirvana and the ability to try different pieces to see how they improve or change an existing sound. As for Johnny... Raul has said it all. I am sure SF subwoofer is exceptional. Why is it that over half the reviews out there mate the SF with a Rel sub?

12-08-11: Erictye
... I am sure SF subwoofer is exceptional. Why is it that over half the reviews out there mate the SF with a Rel sub?

Maybe because REL--like SF--is also distributed in the US by Sumiko, and until SF came up with their own sub it was the package that the distributor--Sumiko--supplied to the reviewer. Also, since REL has a full line of subs, it was relatively easy to match a sub to a given speaker line (such as a T8 to the Toy series). With that in mind, the better question might be, "Why, with REL as a sister company, did Sonus Faber take on the development and marketing costs to come up with their own Cremona M subwoofer?

Raul: For all your words you haven't told me a thing I don't already know. However, I can't buy your dismissal of a general speaker maker as having a disadvantage in subwoofer design given that any company can hire just about any designer it wants. John Curl designs electronics for Parasound. Nelson Pass has done it for Adcom. D'Agostino desgined for Aragon. Hsu designed (or consulted) on the Outlaw subwoofer designs. I have no doubt that Sonus Faber hired all the specialized help it needed to come up with a subwoofer to meet their high standards of musical coherency and seamless integration--the areas most elusive in matching subs to mains.

As for Velodyne, its accelerometer/feedback design and low advertised THD is essentially an electro-mechanical version of the negative feedback loops used in amplifier design. Feedback loops were used to excess in the "THD wars" of the late '70s receivers, and only resulted in lower numbers--not better sound--to sell more receivers.

I'm not saying Velodyne's accelerometer is an ineffective gimmick, just that it doesn't prove that it's superior to JL, REL--or Sonus Faber.