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"Musical" subwoofers? Advice please on comparing JL subs

I'm ready to be taught and I'm ready to be schooled. I've never owned a subwoofer and I'm not so hot with the physics of acoustics. I've had my eye on two 10" JL Audio subwoofers, the e110 ($1600) and the f110v2 ($3500). I hope this is a simple question: will the f110v2 be more "musical" than the e110?

Perhaps unnecessary details: I'm leaning into small bookshelf speakers, mini monitors with limited bass, for near-field listening in a small room. I don't want to rock the casbah and rattle the windows; I want to enhance the frequency range from roughly 28hZ to perhaps 90 or 100hZ: the lower notes of the piano, cello, bassoon, double bass, etc. I think I'm asking: will one of those subwoofers produce a more "musical" timbre in that range? Is spending the extra $2000 worth it in terms of acoustic warmth and pleasure? More generally, are some subs more musical than others? Or is that range just too low for the human ear to discern critically? 

I know there are a lot of variables and perhaps my question can't be answered in isolation. If it helps, let's put to the side topics such as room treatments, DSP and DARO, debates about multiple subs, debates about using subwoofers at all, and the difficulties of integration. Let's assume a fast main speaker with limited bass. I'm not going to put a 12" sub in the room. While I'm not going to put four subs in the small room, I would strongly consider putting in two, and it would of course be much more economical to put in two e110s. This, though, would only lead to the same question now doubled: would two f110v2 subs sound more musical than two e110s? Also, I'm sure there are other fine subs out there but I'm not looking for recommendations; if it helps to extrapolate, consider the REL S/510 and T/5i. 

I realize that I may be wildly off with all this, and I know that the best way to find out is to try them out. I'm not at that point yet. I'm simply curious about the "musicality" of different subwoofers. 
northman
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
No timing issues. Impossible to have timing issues with a sub. Simply cannot happen. 

Let me clarify that. Its impossible to have timing issues if you mean in the sense its so critically important to midrange and treble, in particular with imaging. Higher frequencies are short waves and this resolution is where we get a lot of our sense of location. Absolutely critical. Difference of as little as 1/8" in speaker location can be heard. 

Low bass however is very long wave. Feet not inches. Forty to sixty feet. Also research has shown that at low bass frequencies we need a full wave to even register the sound. Cannot hear less than a full wave! Well, a full wave at 40 Hz is 1/40th of a second. In that time the wave can travel clear across the room and back. So how are we gonna know where it came from? How is timing going to even be an issue? Its not. Can't be! 

Yes I know you will hear again and again how important timing is. Just remember the physics and smile and learn something about how often people repeat stuff without ever thinking things through.  

Seemingly contrary to the above you will probably notice the bass from your swarm is even more 3D and seems at times to be very clearly localized. Mine sure is. But this is because we get our localization cues from higher frequencies, which when the bass is clean like this they are heard more clearly as well. But this can be proven to have nothing to do with the subs by the simple test of wiring them all mono. Bass will be just as perfect mono or stereo. Because when it comes to low bass there is no stereo. How could there be? There's those long waves again. Physics!
northman OP
265 posts
 
I appreciate all the advice. Perhaps I should have made it clear, though: I'm not putting four subwoofers into a 10'x11' room. (Oh, wait. I did make that clear.) And as much as I appreciate the advice, I'm not asking about subwoofer integration.

I don't mean to be rude but my original question remains and I'd rather not see this thread launch itself into the swarm stratosphere. I grant that four subs are better but I'm not doing that in this tiny room. We can blame my wife if we want. If it makes people feel better, I'll ask it about two subs: would TWO e110s sound any different than TWO f110v2? The difference in cost is $4,000. Would the higher-end subs sound better? Or can we simply not hear a difference between subwoofers? (Also, people talk about speed; if the stand-mounts are fast, do I need a fast sub?)


millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Almost forgot. There is one sense in which timing matters. Because the benefit of DBA is multiple locations creates multiple smooth small modes. Moving subs around moves the modes around. But the modes can also be moved around by changing the timing or phase of the signal. Simplest way is to reverse phase. Some amps like Dayton let you adjust phase. Phase and timing are different aspects of the same thing.  

But again, we are talking phase changes of a very low frequency. 20Hz is 1/20th of a second. Many orders of magnitude longer than the time it takes electricity to travel an extra few feet down a wire. So timing is moot in that sense too.
audiokinesis
2,747 posts
 
Northman, given your situation, I’d suggest the sub that has the most powerful EQ. That would be the F110.

I apologize for volunteering subwoofer-related information that you did not ask for. I misunderstood what you were open to:

"I’m ready to be taught and I’m ready to be schooled. I’ve never owned a subwoofer and I’m not so hot with the physics of acoustics."

Duke
mikelavigne
2,199 posts
 
in phase and in time matters at all frequencies, if we are talking optimization. how perfect do you want it? mostly this matters as a result of how dynamic we expect to run our systems. at low SPL’s no doubt time is less an issue since the negative effects are minimal. but at warp 11 when the music is borderline falling apart; time and phase issues makes it all a mess.

i have twin tower speakers; one tower is a 86" tall, 750 pound stack of 4 15" active subwoofers, high passed at 40hz. the other tower is an 82" inch tall 750 pound passive tower. exactly aligning these 2 towers equa-distant to the listening position makes a musical difference.

the idea is you want a perfectly timed wave launch from all the drivers if you can do it.

btw; the sound is really fine when the 2 towers are not perfectly aligned, but better when they are aligned. this is an analog approach to subwoofer set-up and time alignment. so i would not argue with anyone who said that time alignment of subs was not important. these type things don’t matter the same to everyone, nor should they.

how perfect do you want things to sound?

i have a separate room with a Home Theater. with an LFE channel. the idea is the same, but the approach and solution is different. in this case i will be using a minidsp with 3 Funk Audio 18.0 subs (i don't have room for '4') arrayed around the room then this total result will be one channel into a Trinnov Altitude 16 processor. part of my set-up will be using a mic to adjust the delay to get all the subs exactly time aligned to my MLP (main listening position). then tune the 3 subs for best room response.

so when all hell is breaking loose, it will be more satisfyingly breaking loose and the truth of the recorded event will be fully enjoyed. many people don’t really care about that. i’m not ’many people’.
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