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"Musical" subwoofers? Advice please on comparing JL subs

I'm ready to be taught and I'm ready to be schooled. I've never owned a subwoofer and I'm not so hot with the physics of acoustics. I've had my eye on two 10" JL Audio subwoofers, the e110 ($1600) and the f110v2 ($3500). I hope this is a simple question: will the f110v2 be more "musical" than the e110?

Perhaps unnecessary details: I'm leaning into small bookshelf speakers, mini monitors with limited bass, for near-field listening in a small room. I don't want to rock the casbah and rattle the windows; I want to enhance the frequency range from roughly 28hZ to perhaps 90 or 100hZ: the lower notes of the piano, cello, bassoon, double bass, etc. I think I'm asking: will one of those subwoofers produce a more "musical" timbre in that range? Is spending the extra $2000 worth it in terms of acoustic warmth and pleasure? More generally, are some subs more musical than others? Or is that range just too low for the human ear to discern critically? 

I know there are a lot of variables and perhaps my question can't be answered in isolation. If it helps, let's put to the side topics such as room treatments, DSP and DARO, debates about multiple subs, debates about using subwoofers at all, and the difficulties of integration. Let's assume a fast main speaker with limited bass. I'm not going to put a 12" sub in the room. While I'm not going to put four subs in the small room, I would strongly consider putting in two, and it would of course be much more economical to put in two e110s. This, though, would only lead to the same question now doubled: would two f110v2 subs sound more musical than two e110s? Also, I'm sure there are other fine subs out there but I'm not looking for recommendations; if it helps to extrapolate, consider the REL S/510 and T/5i. 

I realize that I may be wildly off with all this, and I know that the best way to find out is to try them out. I'm not at that point yet. I'm simply curious about the "musicality" of different subwoofers. 
northman
erik_squires
16,058 posts
 
You know it is blasphemy to say, but I have a couple of SVS subs, one next to each speaker, and I have once before written that for some reason I have not had the problems others have making them sound right to my ears.

Not blasphemy to me, but not the path I’d recommend everyone try first.


The problems that you run into getting very deep bass is that too much is up to chance and circumstance. Open floor plans, good speaker/listener position, and otherwise naturally good acoustics contribute.

I will say though that I’ve heard many subs be configured so they are inoffensive, without being fantastic. I fell into this trap myself for a while I was satisfied with what I had and thought it was the best I could do without brand shuffling.


Which one are you? I don’t know. You could have gotten super lucky, you might have settled. Lets be grateful for these lucky situations when they happen.

oleschool's avatar
oleschool
722 posts
 
millercarbon
Question ,I am employing the swarm in my new room you chimed in on from my post, and I have also in home theatre.When running the longer length of cabling to get to the furthest subs are you experiencing timing issues? please elaborate on this ?
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
No timing issues. Impossible to have timing issues with a sub. Simply cannot happen. 

Let me clarify that. Its impossible to have timing issues if you mean in the sense its so critically important to midrange and treble, in particular with imaging. Higher frequencies are short waves and this resolution is where we get a lot of our sense of location. Absolutely critical. Difference of as little as 1/8" in speaker location can be heard. 

Low bass however is very long wave. Feet not inches. Forty to sixty feet. Also research has shown that at low bass frequencies we need a full wave to even register the sound. Cannot hear less than a full wave! Well, a full wave at 40 Hz is 1/40th of a second. In that time the wave can travel clear across the room and back. So how are we gonna know where it came from? How is timing going to even be an issue? Its not. Can't be! 

Yes I know you will hear again and again how important timing is. Just remember the physics and smile and learn something about how often people repeat stuff without ever thinking things through.  

Seemingly contrary to the above you will probably notice the bass from your swarm is even more 3D and seems at times to be very clearly localized. Mine sure is. But this is because we get our localization cues from higher frequencies, which when the bass is clean like this they are heard more clearly as well. But this can be proven to have nothing to do with the subs by the simple test of wiring them all mono. Bass will be just as perfect mono or stereo. Because when it comes to low bass there is no stereo. How could there be? There's those long waves again. Physics!
northman OP
251 posts
 
I appreciate all the advice. Perhaps I should have made it clear, though: I'm not putting four subwoofers into a 10'x11' room. (Oh, wait. I did make that clear.) And as much as I appreciate the advice, I'm not asking about subwoofer integration.

I don't mean to be rude but my original question remains and I'd rather not see this thread launch itself into the swarm stratosphere. I grant that four subs are better but I'm not doing that in this tiny room. We can blame my wife if we want. If it makes people feel better, I'll ask it about two subs: would TWO e110s sound any different than TWO f110v2? The difference in cost is $4,000. Would the higher-end subs sound better? Or can we simply not hear a difference between subwoofers? (Also, people talk about speed; if the stand-mounts are fast, do I need a fast sub?)


millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Almost forgot. There is one sense in which timing matters. Because the benefit of DBA is multiple locations creates multiple smooth small modes. Moving subs around moves the modes around. But the modes can also be moved around by changing the timing or phase of the signal. Simplest way is to reverse phase. Some amps like Dayton let you adjust phase. Phase and timing are different aspects of the same thing.  

But again, we are talking phase changes of a very low frequency. 20Hz is 1/20th of a second. Many orders of magnitude longer than the time it takes electricity to travel an extra few feet down a wire. So timing is moot in that sense too.
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