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"Musical" subwoofers? Advice please on comparing JL subs

I'm ready to be taught and I'm ready to be schooled. I've never owned a subwoofer and I'm not so hot with the physics of acoustics. I've had my eye on two 10" JL Audio subwoofers, the e110 ($1600) and the f110v2 ($3500). I hope this is a simple question: will the f110v2 be more "musical" than the e110?

Perhaps unnecessary details: I'm leaning into small bookshelf speakers, mini monitors with limited bass, for near-field listening in a small room. I don't want to rock the casbah and rattle the windows; I want to enhance the frequency range from roughly 28hZ to perhaps 90 or 100hZ: the lower notes of the piano, cello, bassoon, double bass, etc. I think I'm asking: will one of those subwoofers produce a more "musical" timbre in that range? Is spending the extra $2000 worth it in terms of acoustic warmth and pleasure? More generally, are some subs more musical than others? Or is that range just too low for the human ear to discern critically? 

I know there are a lot of variables and perhaps my question can't be answered in isolation. If it helps, let's put to the side topics such as room treatments, DSP and DARO, debates about multiple subs, debates about using subwoofers at all, and the difficulties of integration. Let's assume a fast main speaker with limited bass. I'm not going to put a 12" sub in the room. While I'm not going to put four subs in the small room, I would strongly consider putting in two, and it would of course be much more economical to put in two e110s. This, though, would only lead to the same question now doubled: would two f110v2 subs sound more musical than two e110s? Also, I'm sure there are other fine subs out there but I'm not looking for recommendations; if it helps to extrapolate, consider the REL S/510 and T/5i. 

I realize that I may be wildly off with all this, and I know that the best way to find out is to try them out. I'm not at that point yet. I'm simply curious about the "musicality" of different subwoofers. 
northman
slimpikins5's avatar
slimpikins5
191 posts
 
That a boy Northman.... Burlington. My old stomping grounds when I was ski racing on the US pro tour. I was down in town by Sugarbush in Warren and had a place at Stratton. Green mountain had their first shop and roasting facility in the town parking lot on route 100. Spent a fair amount of time on Church Street at the French Bistro in Burlington with my then GF from Montreal. I think you have the movie. Fun!
I am down at the Maine Coast about 3 hours from you. Drop by and have a listen. I am spending what I have on this stuff as they say I cannot take it with me, but actually I have a deal worked out and I am.  No devil sticks 7000 watts
desktopguy
356 posts
 
I have the e110 & know it to be an excellent subwoofer. It is accurate; tuneful (standup bass vs electric bass vs baritone clarinet all sound quite different--as they do IRL); goes plenty low for me; and has more than enough power for me.

It lacks the room correction software than the Fathom (I believe) has, but I’m fine not having that.

For the application you describe, the e110 should be more than fine. In fact, it should be exemplary.

Where it would not be more than fine would be:
-- in a huge room
-- where you expect disco SPLs to happen at the lowest frequencies
-- and where you expect the lowest frequencies to be in the mid-to-upper teens (ie, 15 - 18 Hz). Subs that can go that low cost as much as a good used car & are worth the $$...

But for normal music listening, e110 is your friend.

It also has one considerable advantage over the Fathom: a filtered high pass output that goes from the sub to your power amp, carrying the main signal (for main speakers) sans all frequencies below 80 Hz. Believe me, this is an unusual feature. Unless you have a separate electronic crossover, or a receiver that does bass management, you will appreciate this feature.
jssmith
309 posts
 
@northman: " ... at what point in the frequency range can most humans begin to discern notes, melody, tone, ... music"

20Hz

No kidding. Notes are just frequencies. Melodies are just a sequence of notes. Tone is mostly a measure of pitch of a repetitive sequence of notes over a certain time period. And timbre is a combination of frequencies.

If you think someone incorporating the low A key of a piano is music then it starts at 27.5 Hz. If you think music starts by someone plucking the E string on a 4-string electric bass then it starts at 41Hz.

Seriously, if you think this tone can be incorporated into something called music, then it begins at 20Hz.

Personally, I think you're wasting your money with JL. A subwoofer's job is flat response, low extension and as high an output as you need for your application. Beyond that it's all about room placement, EQ and room treatment. It only makes sense to consider JL if unobtrusiveness is of primary concern, but there are still much cheaper options (unobtrusiveness is why I have three Paradigm Seismic 110 in my living room and a Velodyn Microvee in the bedroom). If you check data-bass.com you'll see how JL performs (not good) against cheaper subwoofers. I'd much rather have three SVS than one JL for the same money.
northman OP
237 posts
 
@slimpikins5--NICE! I bet the French bistro was Lunig's. "The Valley"--Warren, Waitsfield, and the Sugarbush region in general--is just beautiful. I live about ten minutes from Smuggs and skied there all the time when my kids were young. By the way, I was skiing (not ever close to your league!) in the mid 70s, when Stowe was still a small town and Okemo had poma lifts.

@desktopguy, thanks. I've heard much the same about the e110. And: I'm not using a big room, I don't need to go below 25hz, and disco sucks. (Yes, I was one of those guys in the 70s; now I love it!)

@jssmith, I appreciate your comments. I really do understand what you're saying: "notes are just frequencies." I'm drawn to the art part more than the physics, so I'll just add that Thelonious Monk, Jerry Garcia, et al were doing something pretty special with those frequencies.


fastfreight
760 posts
 
Good Morning,

 Back again with my opinions and findings and report of the crow I had for dessert last night!  Well, after pontificating that most of us can not move our subwoofers around the room, I tried exactly that; 
My Carbon Limiteds (or any sub I tried) lived just inboard from my main speakers, perfectly nestled between speakers and my low center equipment rack / wall mounted TV.  A fairly common set up, and esthetically pleasing.  Well, recall my issue with boominess of bass on certain tracks (certain heavy bass frequencies).  My REL Carbon Limiteds have wireless LongBow, but I was not using it as the sub's location was very close to my amps.  So I reconnected the wireless, and began shifting the subs around a bit. (This is one area that an 80lb subwoofer beats a 110 lb subwoofer hands down!). I ended up with one way over in the right hand corner and one way over in the left hand corner of the room, both facing inwards. 

Low and behold!  The reinforced boom at around 30hz was minimized, and the soundstage and airiness was enhanced!  I could not locate the subs with my eyes closed and everything sounded better!
I listened for hours with a smile on my face!  So old dogs can learn, it just takes patience.  My purist mentality is still preserved (no EQ), and I am loving the REL's, which, as many keep saying, completely disappear
when set up (and located) correctly.  My phase switch setting did change
as well by the way.  Also, perhaps the imaging and soundstage benefit from 'less stuff' between the speakers?
Smiling in Maryland...Ken
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