Living with unsolvable hum - Any audio detectives out there?


For over a year I have put up with a hum in my system, coming through the speakers (not chassis hum). I cannot make it go away. It seems to be related to the preamp because it stops when I replace the preamp. But I had my local tech hook up the preamp on his bench and it is quiet as a mouse. I've also corresponded with its designer, David Berning, who has been very responsive and helpful. But no luck solving it. I thought it may be related to the separate power supply's umbilical but David Berning said likely not. Earlier this year I even bought a star grounding component from Granite Audio and connected everything to it. Didn't work. After trying everything the engineer at Granite could think of (he was great), he was stumped too. These people have forgotten more than I'll ever know about the subject, so I gave up at that point and just lived with it. I had also tried everything they and a few knowledgeable friends have suggested (see below). But now I would like to take another swing at solving it. Any ideas? What kills me is that now I can't recall when it started, which would be very helpful to diagnose. The system sounds as good as I've ever had it now, and I LOVE the Berning preamp. So replacing it or other major components is not an attractive proposition for me.

For any intrepid detectives, here are the facts:

- Hum is typical 60 cycle sound- both channels equal volume of hum- loud enough to hear at the listening position, but just barely. Quite noticeable when standing at the rack.
- Hums with any source, not volume dependent, still hums with no source components attached (I even tried unplugged them from the wall too). But the hum stops if preamp is disconnected from amps.
- System plugs into a dedicated 20 amp line with eight plugs. Nothing else is on this circuit except my audio system. I had an electrician verify and tighten all the ground connections. The service is a relatively new 200 amp service. The electrician tested and found no ground issues or noise in the dedicated line.
- Tried shutting down all breakers in the house except my dedicated audio line. No effect, surprisingly. I had high hopes for that one!
- Tried cheater plug on everything including the preamp. No effect.
- Tried different interconnects between pre and power amps... No effect.
- Replaced all linestage tubes. No effect.
- Moved components around, moved the power supply, even used long interconnects to move the preamp three feet in front of the rack. No effect.
- Tried an extension cord to plug the preamp into a different AC circuit. No effect.
-The only thing I know of that could try, but have not tried, is replacing the power supply tubes, but I didn't bother because on the bench it made no noise for my tech.

My system:
- Power: Temporarily I'm using a Shunyata T6000 distributor (the hum existed prior to this, and the Shunyata didn't solve it). All Cardas Golden Ref or Golden power cords, except T6000 is plugged into the wall with Shunyata Sigma HC cord.
Analog: Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Jelco TK-850, Cardas Golden Cross phono cable
Digital: CEC transport and Audio Logic DAC, Golden Cross interconnect.
Preamp: Custom Berning Octal tube preamp with separate tube rectified switching power supply, built-in Jensen transformer MC stage at 24x gain (on the high side, I know, but it sounds amazing compared to other winding options)
-Power amps: Quicksilver v4 monos with KT150 tubes
-Two REL G2 subs (hum existed before them, and persists when they are disconnected and unplugged)
Somehow the interaction between the preamp and other components seems to be creating the problem. Source components don't seem to matter, but amps are Quicksilver v4 monos. Speakers are Verity Audio Parsifals. Interconnects, speaker cables and power cables are Cardas Golden Cross.
Speakers: Verity Audio Parsifal Encores. No surround sound or home theater.

montaldo
This may sound crazy but have you lifted the ground on one channel at the power amp or, alternately, the pre-amp?  Kerry_
Might be gain sensitivity on the amp- must be too high and therefore picking up an otherwise inaudible hum. Ask Bering about padding it down perhaps.
Ok before you go out and buy anything, do this first!

Take a good look behind your equipment. Look at all the power and signal cables. Make sure all of them cross each other at about 90 degrees. No parallel cables should be touching or near each other.

Anything running parallel should be at least 12" apart...better if it is 18".

To some degree, reorganize your components to accommodate better cable management.

Undo looping cable. Use shorter and longer power cables to tailor to the need.

If you need, use small blocks of wood or zip ties or velcro to create separation and organization.

Also get rid of wall warts and non audio equipment connected to the line.

Separate the analog stuff from the digital stuff. They should not share the same line.

This worked for me...and I have 2 dedicated audio lines. The noise appeared when I quickly and carelessly changed out my power conditioner for another. The noise is most likely coming from your own equipment.

Look inside any point to point wired preamp or amp...everything crosses at 90 for this same reason.





Does one connected power amp only hum? i.e. completely remove one amp from the system.
Try each amp. One amp may be quieter than the other.

If no hum with only one amp, try reversing power transformer input leads on the other power amp. 

I had a similar issue with factory buggered, err built, Tubes4HiFi / VTA M-125s
See  ieLogical VTA M-125
Test 1:

Pulled Audio Research D100A out of rack. Put amp into my garage workbench away from all RF devices.  Plugged amp right into wall outlet. No donut between amp and wall outlet.  Plugged speakers right into amp.  Zero 60 hertz cycle. Amp is fine as Scott mentioned.

Test 2:

Plugged my old iphone 6 into patch cable with 1/4 inch to RCAs.  Plugged RCAs right into amp.  Before turning on iphone, checked speakers with amp. Zero 60 hertz cycle.

Test 3:

Turned on iphone with no music at low volume level.  Checked speakers with amp. Zero 60 hertz cycle.  Turned iphone volume to max. Zero 60 hertz cycle.

Test 4:

Turned on iphone with music...listened specifically between music gaps = zero 60 hertz cycle.

Results

Amp is quiet when it is by itself and NOT near equipment.  Using garage wall outlet power and no line conditioner / regenerator. Using no donut toroid.  This is baseline for the amp in an isolated environment so I don't need to further test/discuss the amp power supply, caps, transformer, etc. in my situation. DONE.

Next Step For Ground Loop Tests

Perform lifted ground technique per Scott.  Lifted ground = all
equipment in stereo rack plugged into wall outlet WITHOUT ground
 = insert a small 3 prong to 2 prong (plus wire for ground)

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Polarized-Grounding-2-Prong-Adapter-Orange-20-Pack-46851/312551290?NC...

 into ALL stereo / related devices in rack EXCEPT for the most sensitive pickup device. In this case, this would be my phono tube amp.  Phono tube amp is plugged directly into wall outlet WITH normal 3 prong ground   = only ONE source for ground across all equipment to baseline all equipment.  Listen for 60 hertz cycle. 

If 60 hertz cycle through speakers....then probably not a ground loop issue and a local proximity 60 hertz transmission being picked up by the phono power cord.  If this occurs, then I will purchase clamp on ferrite and place on the amp.

https://www.amazon.com/Roctee-Suppressor-Electronic-Ferrites-Diameter/dp/B07XCMY6LT/ref=sr_1_12?dchi...   

If no 60 hertz cycle through speakers with single ground source (phono amp), then systematically begin removing the 3 to 2 power connectors.  Remove one at a time. Remove from the most sensitive to least sensitive gear.  In my case I would then remove line amp 3 to 2 connector, since that is next in the chain after the phono amp, which plugs into line amp.  
Test for 60 cycle, and continue proceeding.  

If 60 cycle surfaces, then that device "may" be the one or one of several contributing noise generators.

Results to follow.