Speaker sensitivity vs SQ


My first thread at AG.

Millercarbon continues to bleat on about the benefits of high sensitivity speakers in not requiring big amplifier watts.
After all, it's true big amplifiers cost big money.  If there were no other factors, he would of course be quite right.

So there must be other factors.  Why don't all speaker manufacturers build exclusively high sensitivity speakers?
In a simple world it ought to be a no-brainer for them to maximise their sales revenue by appealing to a wider market.

But many don't.  And in their specs most are prepared to over-estimate the sensitivity of their speakers, by up to 3-4dB in many cases, in order to encourage purchasers.  Why do they do it?

There must be a problem.  The one that comes to mind is sound quality.  It may be that high sensitivity speakers have inherently poorer sound quality than low sensitivity speakers.  It may be they are more difficult to engineer for high SQ.  There may be aspects of SQ they don't do well.

So what is it please?

128x128clearthinker
@audiokinesis --

This is almost exactly what I’m working on, and had hoped to introduce in 2020 but... stuff happened that year...

Anyway I designed a large-format Oblate Spheroid waveguide using Earl Geddes’ equations, like you targeting a 700 Hz crossover to twin 15" midwoofers. That 700 Hz figure is consistent with the findings of David Griesinger which Geddes subscribes to, and is very close to the 800 Hz crossover that Greg Timbers uses in the JBL M2. Imo the ability to cover the spectrum from there on up with a single driver is a major advantage over more "conventional" approaches, in addition to the other advantages of large drivers and high efficiency.

And of course the way around the bass extension/box size/efficiency tradeoff relationship is to hand off the bottom couple of octaves or so to subwoofers.

I’m rather surprised by how similar our approaches are. I knew we were barking up trees in the same forest, but didn’t realize it was the same tree!

That is certainly interesting re: the similarity of approach, and thanks for your added/confirmative info here! Indeed, covering the whole frequency span from ~700Hz on up from a single driver/waveguide/horn element appears to be paramount. The current driver/horn constellation (and soon to be fitted with a bigger horn) of my main speakers sport a 2" exit with a 3" titanium diaphragm, and thus lends great energy and "breathing room" to its lower to central region. This does affect the upper octave however compared to smaller exits of 1 and 1.4" which don't roll off quite as early, though conversely at the expense of lower band energy and higher distortion here. Choices, choices; it's a matter of balance (and preference) with the implementation at hand, but I find it's worth the effort compared to adding another driver element, cross-over and point source.    

If I may inquire: what's the intended waveguide exit size of your upcoming design, and would the twin 15" bass/mids be configured D'Appolito style or with both of them below the OS waveguide? Btw, I'm thinking whether Timbers would've preferred a slightly lower cut-off than 800Hz with the M2's, but that the size of its waveguide simply won't allow it? Scaling up the size here likely would've made for a bulkier, and less commercial appearance. 

To the OP: sorry for veering off-topic. If nothing else what's elaborated above is an indication of a preference and a desired high eff. design path that seems less popular or visible not for reasons of lack of sonic prowess, but rather size requirements and design principle in particular. Few audiophiles appear interested in compression drivers and horns/waveguides, not to mention larger pro woofer/mids that extends into the central midrange; I'd wager it's largely conjecture aimed at a speaker segment that doesn't speak the conventional hi-fi narrative, and where auditioned their typically denser and more direct/present sounding nature mayn't appeal to those who're usually exposed to a leaner, more laid-back and softer/reverberative presentation. 

And may I just add: high efficiency doesn't automatically equate into easy or easier amp load. Less power is stored into heat for a given SPL, but a complex passive x-over here can still drain amps with less prodigious power supplies. For easier an more optimal amp load active configuration is required. 
@mijostyn --

Good post, but I'd have to disagree with below quote:

A low sensitivity speaker can be very bit as dynamic as a high sensitivity speaker. It is just a matter of power.

Sorry, but no. Anything approaching live dynamics calls for both high efficiency and power (with very high eff. all-horn designs less power is needed). It's not only a question of achieving fairly uninhibited SPL's and dynamic envelope, which in itself is no easy task, but doing so with headroom to spare - on the speaker as well as amp side. Indeed, headroom is your friend and aids ease of presentation. Of course, less than live dynamic levels would do for many, but even then (with low eff. speakers) headroom is likely sparse. Power is power, and where less efficiently turned into acoustic output is stored as heat and eventually power compression.  
@phusis asked a bunch of good questions. My response:

The round waveguide has a pattern width of 75 degrees and will sit atop the midwoofer box, somewhat reminiscent of some of Avantgarde’s models. So the configuration is "HMM" instead of "MHM". (We heard PBN’s "M2!5" speaker which uses the "HMM" configuration, and even at fairly close range with eyes closed it was coherent.)

Passive crossovers, OTL and SET friendly impedance curves (nothing against active, but my target market is elsewhere). Multiple subwoofers south of 70 Hz or so. Obviously not cheap, but there will be some trickle-down to more affordable models. 

*  *  *   

Regarding dynamics: 

I'm friends with a recording engineer who, for decades, has been measuring the dynamic compression characteristics of loudspeakers, both home audio and prosound.  He has amassed data on over a hundred loudspeakers.  He measures the compression of peaks, something that might be called "short-term power compression", as it happens vastly faster than long-term thermal compression.   Earl Geddes was the first to bring this up to me, and Floyd Toole exchanged a few messages with me on the subject.  He sees it too, and said that it's an area which has not been adequately researched. 

Anyway my friend finds a strong correlation between efficiency and freedom from compression on peaks.  I'm not going into the specifics because I consider them confidential, as he hopes to publish his findings some day, but in general high efficiency and large-diameter voice coils translate to freedom from compression on peaks. 

Duke
We're nearly at the end of this one.

Thanks for your post mapman and a couple of others on the same point.
A large part of the answer to my question seems to be that efficient speakers cost more to build to the same SQ level in part because need to be a lot larger, in part because driver manufacturing tolerances are more critical.  This accounts for the huge growth in low-efficiency small box speakers since the 80s.

Indeed, since the 60s - does anyone else remember the introduction of the Goodmans Maxim?   https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133504369128

Just out of school a friend of mine had a pair.  Only 10.5 inches high.  Great for a student room.  Maxim has impressive sound quality for the size and surprising bass if you backed it against a wall.

One might observe that avoiding high amplifier costs with efficient speakers is one side of a coin with high speaker costs on the other side.

No free lunch after all.

Phusis and Duke, I beg to agree and disagree. I have always said the more power the better. This is a relative statement, relative to efficiency and other factors such as the output capability of the speaker. A speaker can only do so loud.
I have been listening to as many horn loaded loudspeakers as I can lately and in general they are very impressive or can be very impressive. It is certainly easier to get dynamic sound because they are so efficient and they go very loud. Now an ESLs volume capability is based on its Xmax which is very small in comparison to dynamic speakers. If you try to run it full range with bass laden material it will run out of Xmax pretty quickly and start clipping or rapping the stators. However if you do two things the situation turns upside down. These are, send everything under 100 Hz to a subwoofer array and design the speaker so that it is a full range line source. What you get is every bit as dynamic as a horn system and I think because there are no crossovers otherwise, an effortless naturalness that makes the speakers disappear. Line sources project power better than point sources. Because ESL almost match the impedance of air their transfer of power is very efficient even if their electrical efficiency is not. So, you have a very dynamic, low efficiency speaker system that goes very loud and has no crossovers above 100 Hz.
Phusis, lets say you have two speakers that both clip at 120 dB at 1 meter. One has an efficiency of 103 dB/1watt/meter and the other 84dB/1watt/1 meter. With a paltry 2 watts the first is blasting at 106 dB and the second only at 87db. To get the second to 106 dB you need 160 watts and this is at 1 meter. At a reasonable listening distance you are easily under 100db, probably down towards 95 dB. We are not even talking about peaks here. The point is that low efficiency speakers require a lot more power to hit dynamic peaks, hundreds of watts. Duke, your friend has more work to do. There are so many factors involved that I doubt you can make a blanket statement that high efficiency speakers are all more dynamic than low efficiency speakers of various types given appropriate power. It is certainly easier to make high efficiency speakers sound dynamic and I would rather have a good sounding high efficiency loud speaker than an equally good sounding low efficiency speaker. The more power on a relative basis the better. Fortunately for me ESLs are more efficient than ever 89-90dB/1watt/meter and there are plenty of amps now that can drive them without farting or blowing up. I should be able to hit 100 dB without leaving Class A operation.