Is my anti-skating too strong.

@lewm 

In fact all of our pivoted tonearms mounted so the stylus overhangs the spindle WILL generate a skating force even at the two null points, because of headshell offset angle. 

Not wishing to stretch this overwrought saga out, but this is not correct.
Skating forces are due to the offset headshell/cartridge AND the pull on the stylus.
At tangent the inward skating force is zero, and therefore at the 2 null points it is zero.

Justme, what I objected to in MC’s generalization was his saying “no overhang, no skating force”. I believe that is a direct quote from his post. The fact is that any pivoted tonearm, whether it overhangs the spindle or not will generate a skating force. 

NO NO NO WRONG WRONG WRONG! Actually worse than wrong, confused beyond recognition. Stop confusing everything!

Look lewm, you said spindle! The spindle has nothing to do with it! Skating forces are generated by the stylus not tracking tangentially.

Look, forget pivoted arms for a second. Think about tangential tracking arms.

Do you at least understand that a tangential tracking arm has no skating force to contend with? Because it is tangent. Perfectly perpendicular to the groove at the point of contact. Because when perfectly perpendicular the force is perfectly parallel to the arm and there is no skating force. Do you at least understand that much? 

This is a complex topic, whether you like it or not. It seems that when I focus on one aspect, you assail me for not focusing on another aspect.  So this is useless.   I did NOT ever say the "spindle" caused the skating force, for god's sake.  When we use the term "overhang" we are referring to pivoted tonearms that are set up such that the stylus tip overhangs the spindle.  I mentioned the spindle for the benefit of anyone who might be trying to follow the logic or who might not be familiar with the meaning of "overhang". That is the context in which I used the word "spindle".  I would like to add with respect to your last post, that when I first discussed the mechanism of the skating force, you got after me for talking in terms of the cantilever and not mentioning the rest of the tonearm system.  Now here you can  be caught out for talking about the stylus alone.  The stylus can be thought of as a single point on the surface of the LP.  As such, the "stylus" can never be tangent to anything.  For tangency, you need two objects that have at least 2-dimensionality.  The point in space has only one.  The cantilever, on the other hand, can be thought of as a straight line, which can exhibit tangency to a circle (the LP groove).  I believe you understand this topic almost as well as I do. Why do you need to include ridicule in your rejoinders? 

@dover 

Not wishing to stretch this overwrought saga out, but this is not correct.Skating forces are due to the offset headshell/cartridge AND the pull on the stylus.At tangent the inward skating force is zero, and therefore at the 2 null points it is zero

How can this be true?  When the stylus is tangent to the groove (null point) the pulling force caused by the friction with be inline with the tonearm’s linear offset, thereby causing a rotational torque around the tonearm’s pivot.  Only a zero offset underslung tonearm will exhibit zero skating at the null point as Lewn has pointed out numerous times

Incredible the amount of confusion generated by such a simple thing. Given a teeter-totter you guys would figure out a way of explaining it that would go on for years and never get there.

Pivoted arms use a geometry that is cobbled together from a need to compromise several conflicting goals. Try not to confuse and conflate the different goals!

When the stylus is tangent to the groove (null point) the pulling force caused by the friction with be inline with the tonearm’s linear offset, thereby causing a rotational torque around the tonearm’s pivot.

This loopy logic results from confusing the STYLUS being tangent with the line from the stylus to the arm pivot being tangent.

We got a couple things going on. Seriously, keep them straight! 

We got a line that runs from the stylus to the pivot. When this line is tangential to the groove then groove drag is perfectly in line and there is no skating force. Period. Does not matter which way you rotate the cartridge, head shell, or any of that. Stylus to pivot perpendicular to groove, zero skating force.

This however is not gonna play music very well! So what we do, make the arm longer. The stylus now overhangs and is beyond tangent. The angle it is off is a vector and that vector force is pushing the arm towards the center. Head shell angle, offset, cartridge alignment DOES NOT MATTER! All that matters as far as skating force is concerned is the overhang. 

Say again, as far as skating force is concerned! Which, according to the title at the top of the page is the subject we are concerned with here. Skating.  

Skating forces have been explained absolutely perfectly by me about a dozen times now. Where people deliberately go confusing is adding in other stuff that we do that does matter but has nothing to do with skating!

The reason for some head shells being cocked off at an angle, or offset, or whatever, cartridge alignment, is all completely different. Now you want to talk about that, fine. But please understand we are no longer talking about skating. We are now talking about tracking angle.

Because the same overhang that introduces skating also puts the arm out of tangency, and this introduces tracking distortion. So we rotate the cartridge trying to get it back at an angle that is tangent.

This is where the cantilever is tangent to the groove. Please note, this is NOT the stylus-pivot being tangent. This is the stylus itself being tangent. We cannot see the stylus, so we use the cantilever as a proxy, and hope the manufacturer has done his job and the stylus is aligned.

Very, very, very important we keep all these thing straight. Each and every one. ALL the confusions above are people conflating, talking about similar but different and sometimes completely unrelated things as if they are all the same. They are not all the same. Get it straight or get it wrong.

I wouldn't mind so much, except playing records is really fun, easy, and sounds great. Until someone comes along with a simple question, and you guys make it seem impossible, and an endless struggle to boot! It is just not that hard. But no one can tell, not from reading stuff like this!