3D lifelike sound and impeccable measurements - mutually exclusive???

They are not exclusive in fact the best components offer fantastic sound and measurement but they are not the components that the magazines write about but the components that stand the test of time because they are so good and always will be.

Very well said....

Firstly, I am a scientist (in professional quality), so to me there is zero question about the objectivity and importance of measurements.
That being said, here we go:1. Industry does not measure all the parameters relevant to sound quality. We do not know what all those parameters are, and of those we know, some are just too hard to measure, or inconvenient. (Analogy: we are measuring blood pressure, weight, height, while we should be doing whole genome sequencing, transcriptome mapping and a metabolome report.)2. We fret greatly about hundredth of a percent of less distortion from an amplifier, and linearity range over a 20+ kilohertz, while the loudspeakers distortion is reaches the tens of percents and instead of a linear range we have a roller-coaster ride. So, if your amp is perfectly flat, you will hear every bump that your speakers add. You should have an amp that cancels out your loudspeakers distortion.
3. Equipment are considered without the effect of the room. The distortion of room + speakers + amp + source should be considered when talking about perceived sound quality, not that of a singled out component.4. Measurements all aim at laboratory standards, royally ignoring the requirements of psychoacoustics. That is, we do not measure sound quality as perceived by the human brain. We measure reliability.

So, there is nothing wrong with measurements, but the applied methodology is lacking, or is just in its infancy to say the least. At the current state of measurement practices measured parameters are perfect predictors of whether the gear performs up to spec or requires maintenance. Also, we can infer many attributes when we know the equipment's topology plus measurements. (Eg the same set of measurements from a SET amp and a solid state amp will result in markedly different sound and loudspeaker compatibility.)As John Atkinson said, with measurement we can tell apart good speakers from bad speakers.
But the only way to tell a great speaker from a good speaker is by listening. (And that applies to other audio gear as well.)

As John Atkinson said, with measurement we can tell apart good speakers from bad speakers.
But the only way to tell a great speaker from a good speaker is by listening. (And that applies to other audio gear as well.)

Great post!

Your post add much to my main points and is clearer than mine...

But you are a scientist and you smell science...

So to speak!

My best to you.....

Excuse me, but realworldaudio started with his conclusion, that there is nothing wrong with measurements. But his entire argument was nothing but showing all kinds of things wrong with measurements. Then after explaining exactly what is wrong with measurements he concludes that there is nothing wrong with measurements.

And, he calls himself a man of science? But wait, "in professional quality" whatever that means.

I know the state of education is so bad these days no one has been taught the first thing about science. But now even professional scientists haven’t a clue? We are doomed. Doomed, I say.

Excuse me, but you started with your conclusion, that there is nothing wrong with measurements. But your entire argument was nothing but showing all kinds of things wrong with measurements. Then after explaining exactly what is wrong with measurements you conclude that there is nothing wrong with measurements.

Millercarbon read more carefully...

He dont speak about measurement the way the "objectivist" speak about them....

You hurry too much on your horse.....

He confirm what i said and what IS the scientific meaning of measurement : RELIABILITY....He even confirm your take on measurement....

For example point 4 in particular:

Measurements all aim at laboratory standards, royally ignoring the requirements of psychoacoustics. That is, we do not measure sound quality as perceived by the human brain. We measure reliability.

Then he IS NOT an "objectivist" audiophile in the "skeptic scientism sunday club" but a true scientific mind...