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Speakers The single most critical component

I know we've been over this Q hundreds of X's over the past 20 years here on audion, You can find dozen of topics dealing with this Q <which is the ,,,,most important component...>>
well time for yet 1 more topic dealing with this,, perhaps unanswered, un-resolved issue.
I'm bringing up the old hachet due to my recent experience acutally hearinga FR in my system. 
Let me tell you, there is not even 1 traditional/conventioanl/xover design <The Boxed Type>> in the world that could convince me  , there is something that will beat out FR (caveat, FR requires  some sort of high sens =sensitivity, tweeter)  in  the Boxy world of speakers.
That is to say, FR + Compression Horn is the future of 21st Century high fidelity. 
One lab has already brought us these ~~~SHF~~~ aka SuperHighFidelity  single drivers. 
The code word here is ~~SHF~~~ which can not never be employed when describing xover/trad/conventioanl style  aka The Box designs. db level under 91 are _<<IN-EFFICIENT>> , = dysfunctional, out dated, old school , = Dinasaurs. 
For amps, I only consider tube amps (PP and SET) as ~~SHF~~~ I can not include ss amps in this topic. 
IMHO all well made tube amps sound very close,
 a  kt88 in brand X will sound  close to brand Y. 
So amplification takes a  distant 2nd place in critical component.  No need to break the bank buying amp A vs  a  lower priced kt88 amp B
CD players, nearly all  tube DAC's , tube cdp-ers sound  close. No need to braek the bank over X vs Y.
My Jadis DAC is  only miniscule gain over the Shanling,
 the Shanling
only a  miniscule gain over the Cayin CD17. 
Now as for  best source  , phonograph is the ideal playback medium vs cds. 
I have some LP's now , but my main collection are classical cds, most not on LP version. Cables , I did note some gains employing silver/copper wiring throughout my entire system including inside the Defy.
Tweak worthy.
New Mundorf caps in all componets, tweak worthy. 
Yet the main central component remaisn the speakers.
Here is where  the entire audio resolution either rises to Nirvana or falls to <<distortion/muddy waters,/pollution/anti-fidelity  voicing  issues.
Your system's fidelity is ultimately dependent on what speaker  you have chosen to employ.
Forget all you've learned over the years, 
The new mantra is <,The speaker is key component>
All else is just extra tweaks/nuances. 
To sum up, a  ~~SHF~~ driver will match even the top of line Wilson weighing in at hundreds of lbs priced $$$$$$$ overa single FR driver. 
FR beats out any/all xover box design speakers. Mostly due to that key specification ~~db level~~~ which is everything in speaker design and thus in resolution/fidelity. 

mozartfan
larryi
3,976 posts
 
I've heard many different speaker types, and many different systems employing ful-lrange drivers, many of which I really liked, but, I would hardly say that such drivers beat out all others.  I've heard many single driver fullrange systems, as well as full-range drivers used as a wide-range driver in multi-way systems.  The full-range drivers ranged from cheap, but quite good Tangband drivers to field-coil drivers that cost about $30k for a pair.  The best commercial single driver system I've heard is the Charney Companion with the AER driver, followed by a Voxativ system and then the Cube Nenuphar.  I have heard, and liked systems with full-range drivers plus woofers and full-range driver plus tweeter, and full-range driver used as a wide-range midrange in three way systems.  My favorite multi-way system with a full-range driver is an open baffle system employing a Jensen M-10 full-range driver and a Jensen RP 302 tweeter (custom-made system).  An example of a good commercial full-range driver plus tweeter speaker is the Soundkaos Wave 42.  Similar to the full-range plus tweeter system are two way single-driver coaxial systems such as those built by Tannoy and Trenner and Friedl.  

Of course there are many other kinds of drivers in many other kinds of systems that can deliver great sound, including many others that avoid complex crossovers, such as full-range electrostatic speakers.  I don't think any particular kind of speaker corners the market on great sound.

While it might well be the case that speakers matter the most when it comes to determining the basic character of a system, it is hardly the case that "all well made tube amps sound very close."  There is an incredibly wide range of differing sound characteristics among well regarded amps.  I heard a comparison of two very fine amps where a relatively modest pair of speakers was employed to show how differences between amps matter.  
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
People hear a system, hear that the sound is coming out of the speaker, it must be the speaker.  

When in reality: Imagine the perfect speaker. The perfect speaker, every bit of the signal that goes in comes out perfectly. The perfect speaker neither adds any sound of its own, nor does it take anything away from what is in the signal it is fed. Therefore, when listening to the perfect speaker you are not hearing the speaker at all. All the speaker really is doing is letting you hear the signal with perfect clarity and fidelity.  

Therefore, in this case, with the perfect speaker the speaker itself no longer matters. It is the components feeding it the signal that matters. Since you cannot hear the speaker then logically the only thing left to hear is the signal, which is running through all these other components.

Do you get it? All these other components are the amp, source, wires. The better the speaker the more these matter. So when you say the speaker is the most important, what you forget to leave out is it is only the most important when it is the worst component. 

The better the speaker the less it matters and the more everything else matters.


mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Voxativ
~~~~~~~~~~~
this is the FR speaker company that is <<on the move>> making their line 21st Century speakers a  reality, 
However  there is only 1 model which i can basrely afford, their AC1A at $1800.
Considering  prices on box speakers this is very competitive. Of course you need to build a cabinet + add a  compression tweet. So now  this makes Voxativ mid priced and has to be judged among mid-priced boxed style speakers. 
What still remains is the <<efficiency factor>> which to me is the only criteria when considering buyinga  speaker, 
Thus to get your foot in the door to a  real high fidelity speaker, expect to fork out the cash.
Otherwise you can buy used box stuff all over audiogon on the cheap, But then its the old saying
<<You get what you pay for>> and nothing more. You will not ever find used FR's on the used market,. Folks never sell what they know is a keep, while if you look here and on ebay, its likea   grave yard > of box style speakers. Take you pick, make any offer, he'll take it.
This is what i am trying to convey here, 
FR have been aro9und, but this comapny has gone further, amking this FR <<the real deal> while box style are  out dtaed. 
this is the point of my OP.
Folks can rave about this box and that box speaker, but once they have listened to a  FR in their rooms, they really know  nothing about the failure of box/xover designs. They are old old school and its just a  matter of time before FR takes the market on new sales.
If I did not mention Voxativ, no one else would. 
I read all these <<what kind of speaker should i get>>> and the list  just goes on and on, Not even 1 mention of FR.
Audiogoners are old school, still stuck in the boxy xover designs. 
I now really hate, despise, puke at hearing any box/xover design. 
This is the point of my OP, to bring awareness. 
Of course Voxativ's line is pricey, their top model goes for 
~~~$60K~~~~~
More than a Mercedes Benz. 
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Tell ya what
Lets take the Xoxativ newest intro model 
@ $2 k+ $1k for a  compression horn tweet (take your pick they range in prices all over the place)
so now give me a  box design under 91db (99% of box designs are 91db/lower) 
that will match what a  FR/TIHorn can do
Sure the FR isa 8 inch woofer, not going to match a  10/12 inch box's bass response.
But for overall equation
bass/mids/highs. 
Name me 1 box dsign that can match the FR/TI Horn's perforamnce.
As a  bonus, I'll give you say ohh another $5k on top of the $3k, help ya out there in this 
final show down shootout, which i began back in 2000 here on audigon, one of the longest running threads in audiogons history. 
Went by the tag, <<Bartokfan>> some of you  who have been around, may remember me, I knew absoluetly nothing back then. It was only when i got the 6.5 FR in
~~I acheived enlightenment~~~
So take $8k, give the FR8/TI Horn your best shooter in the west
OK Coral, 
all my chips on the FR/TI Horn. 
Taking some 20 years to get to the last speaker standing shootout,
Sundown, you be there...
;-))

mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
$8k in the used market, 
Thats $16k in the new market, box/xover low efficient design vs the 8FR/TI Horn speaker.
After 40 years, i finally have awakened. 
Did it all my own, even Richard Gray  could not give me the answer to my search.
All he said FR has good things and bad things. 
I;ll take the bad with the good, because the good is The Best.  whereas box style only offers,,,~~Mediocre~~~
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