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Speakers The single most critical component

I know we've been over this Q hundreds of X's over the past 20 years here on audion, You can find dozen of topics dealing with this Q <which is the ,,,,most important component...>>
well time for yet 1 more topic dealing with this,, perhaps unanswered, un-resolved issue.
I'm bringing up the old hachet due to my recent experience acutally hearinga FR in my system. 
Let me tell you, there is not even 1 traditional/conventioanl/xover design <The Boxed Type>> in the world that could convince me  , there is something that will beat out FR (caveat, FR requires  some sort of high sens =sensitivity, tweeter)  in  the Boxy world of speakers.
That is to say, FR + Compression Horn is the future of 21st Century high fidelity. 
One lab has already brought us these ~~~SHF~~~ aka SuperHighFidelity  single drivers. 
The code word here is ~~SHF~~~ which can not never be employed when describing xover/trad/conventioanl style  aka The Box designs. db level under 91 are _<<IN-EFFICIENT>> , = dysfunctional, out dated, old school , = Dinasaurs. 
For amps, I only consider tube amps (PP and SET) as ~~SHF~~~ I can not include ss amps in this topic. 
IMHO all well made tube amps sound very close,
 a  kt88 in brand X will sound  close to brand Y. 
So amplification takes a  distant 2nd place in critical component.  No need to break the bank buying amp A vs  a  lower priced kt88 amp B
CD players, nearly all  tube DAC's , tube cdp-ers sound  close. No need to braek the bank over X vs Y.
My Jadis DAC is  only miniscule gain over the Shanling,
 the Shanling
only a  miniscule gain over the Cayin CD17. 
Now as for  best source  , phonograph is the ideal playback medium vs cds. 
I have some LP's now , but my main collection are classical cds, most not on LP version. Cables , I did note some gains employing silver/copper wiring throughout my entire system including inside the Defy.
Tweak worthy.
New Mundorf caps in all componets, tweak worthy. 
Yet the main central component remaisn the speakers.
Here is where  the entire audio resolution either rises to Nirvana or falls to <<distortion/muddy waters,/pollution/anti-fidelity  voicing  issues.
Your system's fidelity is ultimately dependent on what speaker  you have chosen to employ.
Forget all you've learned over the years, 
The new mantra is <,The speaker is key component>
All else is just extra tweaks/nuances. 
To sum up, a  ~~SHF~~ driver will match even the top of line Wilson weighing in at hundreds of lbs priced $$$$$$$ overa single FR driver. 
FR beats out any/all xover box design speakers. Mostly due to that key specification ~~db level~~~ which is everything in speaker design and thus in resolution/fidelity. 

mozartfan
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,094 posts
 
- Active treatment with DSP/EQ colours the sound, that cannot be avoided. that is undebatable.
- Passive Tuned helmholtz resonator will work just as well as active subs cancellation methods or active helmholtz resonator and will avoid all this EQ nonsense.
exactly...

Tuning a room is like tuning a piano....

The geometry/topology of the room is like the geometry/topology of the piano case...

The Helmholtz resonators are like the strings of the piano for the piano tuner...

It takes me a month to reach optimal results...

Each of my resonator is segmented and mechanically tunable...

No cost at all...

Audiophile experience may cost peanuts.... It is not perfect but i will never dream to buy anything more.... Is it not something?

 I wrote that because i am the only one claiming that and i want to help those who dont have money to fulfill their dream like me 7 years ago... Thats all....i learn how to make it.... Nobody here ever say that simple truth.... I never bought "tweaks" i replicated them at no cost or create new one....

I sell nothing save creativity ....
murphythecat
181 posts
 
" I have not calculate the exact size where controls of the timing early and late reflections will be more difficult"

what do you mean?
Do you have early reflection panels (absorption) ? Cause one thing that is very clear in the acoustic world, any small room need at the minimum absorption at every early reflection points. DSP or EQ will not remove the decay problems caused by early reflections. Only absorption (in a small room) will. You could make your room measure flat FR wise with EQ and DSP, but without absorption at the early reflections points (ceiling, side walls and behind your listening position) any ECT measurements will clearly show that your room decay is not even at all frequencies and certainly not -15db within 20ms or even 100ms

"acoustic is the sleeping princess and the future queen, the gear is the 7 working dwarves’’
Agreed 100%
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,094 posts
 
what do you mean?
The golden rule in PASSIVE treatment is simple: BALANCING the relation between absorbing and reflecting and diffusive surface...We need the three in some ratio according to each room specificities...

I did it by listening experiments...

For the first reflection point all is relative to other factors in the room: geometry, topology, size, acoustic content of furniture, walls, ceilings floors etc.

Then NO RULE is valid for ALL room save a balance that must be created by the tuning experiments by our own ears...

For the reflections point coming from front and back meditate this short abstract of a scientific paper:

«A new physical measure for psychologicalevaluation of a soundfield: Front/back energy ratio as a measurefor
envelopment.M. Morimoto (Environmental Acoust.Lab.,Facultyof Eng.,KobeUniv., Rokko,Nada,Kobe,657Japan)and
K. Iida (Kobe Univ., Kobe,657 Japan andMatsushita Commun.IndustrialCo., Ltd., Japan)
Broadening is one of the important characteristics for the psychological evaluation of a soundfield.Several investigations
indicated that broadening was comprised of two elemental senses, i.e.,auditory source width(spaciousness) and envelopment [M.
Morimoto et al., Proc. 13th ICA, Belgrade2, 215-218 (1989); J. AcoustSoc.Jpn.46, 449-457 (1990); and Hidaka et al., J.
Acoust.Soc.Am. 92, 2469 (A) (1992)]. They inferred that the degree of interaural cross correlation of late reflections correlated
with envelopment. This paper,however, shows the results of psychological experiments that envelopment is affected by theenergy
ratio of reflections coming from the front of the listener to those coming from the back of the listener,even if the degree of
interaural cross correlation of the late reflections are equal.Namely,envelopment grows as the energy of the reflection coming
from the back of the listener increases. This result suggests the need to measure the ratio which has never been measured.»


This is only an example of one of the paper that inspire me...

The ACTIVE mechanical controls of the room has 2 aspects: control of "timing" of early and late reflections complementing the passive treatment but control of the relation between each speaker direct wave with the location of different resonators near the speakers and around the room, this use of each speaker will make easier for each ear the recreation of distance then of "imaging"....It is possible to modify the timbre perception and the listener envelopment at will...The goal is the more natural is the best....

I am not a scientist only someone who listen by experiments....But i discover my idea reading some papers in psychoacoustic research...


mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,094 posts
 
I am totally convinced that people throw their money because they dont know how to control vibrations/resonance, and decresing the electrical noise floor and controls the acoustic at low cost...

All audio thread are about the gear electronical design , never mainly about how to install it rightfully... And the irony is that all in all electronic design is mature for decades now... It is not difficult to afford a relatively good pieces of gear now...

Then people throw themselves in an upgrading chase ignoring simple fact hypnotized by the weight of money which is for most the only way to reach a very good S.Q.

It is false...

If not, am i deaf?

With my 500 bucks system...

Perhaps....
who knows ? 😁

Nobody with a costly system will accept what i said easily .... but i never pretended that my systen rival costly one i only said that the ratio price/S.Q. of my system is very high.... And enough for me....

I spoke for those who dont have money to create sonic heaven... It is possible....

Ok i spoke too much...I hope it will help and made people think....

My best to all.....
murphythecat
181 posts
 
First, I agree 100% with you about the importance of acoustics. its a crucial aspect of sound quality. Id go as far as say that I dont think you can get hi-fi sound without a properly treated room.

" For the reflections point coming from front and back meditate this short abstract of a scientific paper"

early reflections coming from the front wall? physically impossible, reflections coming from behind the speakers are secondary reflections and will affect the SBIR, but apart from open baffle or Maggies, no early reflections are coming off from the wall behind the speakers.
secondary reflections are good by definition. early reflections are always bad. no matter the room. do you know the definition of a early reflection and the difference between early and secondary reflections?



" For the first reflection point all is relative to other factors in the room: geometry, topology, size, acoustic content of furniture, walls, ceilings floors etc. Then NO RULE is valid for ALL room save a balance that must be created by the tuning experiments by our own ears..."

ok, so no mics or measurements?

The understanding of early reflections and how to make a small-medium room transparent acoustically is well established by now. Acoustic is a science. Not much mysteries left there. every room is different, but every room will have early reflections points. and the same method to stop the detriments from early reflections is either diffusion if you have a huge room, or in any normal room, absorption. "furniture" wont change anything here. Rugs either.



" control of "timing" of early and late reflections complementing the passive treatment but control of the relation between each speaker direct wave with the location of different resonators near the speakers and around the room, this use of each speaker will make easier for each ear the recreation of distance then of "imaging"

wow, not sure i understand this sentence. Resonators tackle specific FR bands. every room will need wideband absorption at early reflection points.


Acoustics is relatively simple

1- find the best listening position. good guideline is start at the 38% rule.
2- Find the best speaker position. Place a mic at the Listneing position and move the right speaker around until you have the smoothest bass without major peaks, avoiding the most crude bass modes. repeat with the Left speaker.
3- absorb the early reflections ( ceiling, side walls, floor, behind the listening position)
4- add 20 inch bass traps floor to ceiling in every corner of the room

Everyone following these steps will have a good measuring room (FR and decay wise)



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