Interesting..... thanks....
Holographic Soundstage ?
I would like to share my observation and hopefully get some input from people who have the same interest.
My system consist of Wharfedale Opus 3 , Krell KRC-3 preamp, Krell KSA 150 amp, Chord Qutest DAC and a computer with JCAT USB EX running Roon/with LPSU from HDPlex.
I mainly like holographic soundstage and would be able to achieve a very good 3D soundstaging with my current Krell setup.
I decided to try out tube amp a couple days ago because I read through the internet and everybody told me that tube amp always have better holographic soundstage and 3D imaging comparing to SS amp.
So I order a Raven Blackhawk MK3 from Raven audio with 45 days home trial just to try it out. I was expecting a very holographic soundstage that will blow my Krell out of the water.
Well, I was so WRONG. The Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven.
The Raven also has some very weak bass comparing to the Krell which is more punchy and tonally rich textured bass.
I cannot understand why it happens. I am always under the impression that tube amp will always provide more holographic soundstage. Obviously, In my set up the Krell is superior when it come to 3 dimensionality.
I will keeping trying out the Raven Blackhawk in the next couple of weeks and if things are not improved. I am ready to return the Raven and perhaps trying out the other tube amps (or solid state amps) that can beat the Krell combo.
If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now.
My system consist of Wharfedale Opus 3 , Krell KRC-3 preamp, Krell KSA 150 amp, Chord Qutest DAC and a computer with JCAT USB EX running Roon/with LPSU from HDPlex.
I mainly like holographic soundstage and would be able to achieve a very good 3D soundstaging with my current Krell setup.
I decided to try out tube amp a couple days ago because I read through the internet and everybody told me that tube amp always have better holographic soundstage and 3D imaging comparing to SS amp.
So I order a Raven Blackhawk MK3 from Raven audio with 45 days home trial just to try it out. I was expecting a very holographic soundstage that will blow my Krell out of the water.
Well, I was so WRONG. The Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven.
The Raven also has some very weak bass comparing to the Krell which is more punchy and tonally rich textured bass.
I cannot understand why it happens. I am always under the impression that tube amp will always provide more holographic soundstage. Obviously, In my set up the Krell is superior when it come to 3 dimensionality.
I will keeping trying out the Raven Blackhawk in the next couple of weeks and if things are not improved. I am ready to return the Raven and perhaps trying out the other tube amps (or solid state amps) that can beat the Krell combo.
If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now.
- ...
- 94 posts total
Interesting, I will have to look at these processors. What I can say about the carver c9 is this. My Emotiva pre amp has an external processor loop. That is where I have the c9 so it enables me to switch in and out from my listening position and your choice of words are exactly how I describe the c9. When it is turned off, the soundstage absolutely collapses. And when it is on, there is absolutely no degradation in sound quality, just a much larger soundstage that goes outside of the 2 speakers. To hear exact instruments and echoes and all, on the far left and right, with a vocal still dead center is amazing, and yes, the sweet spot, unfortunately, is only for one person, however, the effect is there for two people if one is sitting directly behind the other. For me, it does not matter as critical listening is a very personal one to one relationship, at least in my household. What really blows me away is all the discussion about this amp or that, This dac or that, vinyl or digital, chasing with big bucks the next incremental little improvement; and non of it..... repeat NONE, has the sound quality enhancement and difference of the listening experience as the C9 (or similar apparently), and all of this for about $200 or less. (oh yeah, don't do it.... your Mcintosh would be offended. I run my music from a node 2i into a mini dsp dac and Dirac Live processor then on to the c9 where we then go bi amped to a pair of 14K Legacy Focus XD towers. So its not like I have terrible stuff; its not the best, but better than most. It sounds amazing. And one other thing about this kind of processing. It's almost scary when a recording has sounds coming at you at 45 degrees away from the center channel. Literally straight in from the left and right. (try Madonna - Vogue for that one). So for my sound stage processor friends, I came across a recording that when used with the C9, I heard the largest soundstage of any recording ever and in a way that I have never heard before. The artist, F.K.A. Twigs. The song, Pendulum. This song has sounds from a huge sound stage plus.... sounds moving back and forth above and behind my head. No recording has ever done this for me and it is mind blowing. It's weird, but listenable music, not my favorite, but whatever the recording engineer did on this track is freaky when it comes to listening with a carver c9 and I'm sure with your BSG. Literally, the sound is NOT coming from the speakers!!!!! Or so it seems. Check it out. |
The artist, F.K.A. Twigs. The song, Pendulum. This song has sounds from a huge sound stage plus.... sounds moving back and forth above and behind my head. No recording has ever done this for me and it is mind blowing.I am very interested by this discussion... I just listen, writing this, to this files "pendulum"... Thanks.... 😊 I Listen to the same sonic experience than you... But i dont own a carver nor any holographic processor... I cannot compare for sure my experience with yours... But it mimic completely your description... My system is average and good... But i a devised mechanical equalizer, with discarded materials from my basement, which use each direct front wave of each speakers asymmetrically, i had the tweeter of one speaker near two of my Helmholtz tubes and the bass driver of the other speaker near three Helmholtz other different tubes.... I distribute 32 tubes and pipes with variable and orientable neck in precise locations in the room .. I am very proud of this creation i stumble on psychoacoustic research paper about timing thresholds experiments and that give me the idea.... My room is already treated by me with passive materials with reflective and absorbing and dispersive surfaces, all homemade.... The ears guided me.... It take a long time tough to reach a good balance.... But listening experiments was fun... I fine tuned them by listening on a month period, like fine tuning a piano... There is no comparison between before and after... I am glad that reading your post and trying this file that confirm my experiment with room controls... I cannot say that my listening correspond exactly to your experience but your description fit mine... I never bought anything nor any tweaks, i was not loose in money and created all my devices homemade with basic psychoacoustic facts for room controls... Amazing file thanks... Try this opera.... You will be surprized by the genius of the recording engineer.... I see the singers walking and turning their heads while singing in the studio.... And Often their voices come completely from my back .... They walked singing all around me.... The youtube file is better than average youtube but it is better with the original for sure...Anyway you can use the youtube to test your carver... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR33bL5aNTk&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_CvjtOvZypmfmC4ygxSxOgm&index=53&t=95s Let me know of your experience with this opera if you will.... Thanks |
It’s almost scary when a recording has sounds coming at you at 45 degrees away from the center channel. Literally straight in from the left and right. (try Madonna - Vogue for that one).Same experience with the Madonna thanks.... My speakers are smaller than yours....My room is 13 feet squared but irregular.... With a difficult position of the speakers it takes me time to correct... Mission Cyrus 781.... Very good but not pricey speakers.... For me acoustic matter more than speakers if the speakers are "relatively good" for sure.... Regards... |
A little late to the party here... I am a big fan of Pass Labs equipment; this holographic imaging you are speaking of is in abundance with a good spec Pass line stage. I have a 3 box Pass line stage (X0.2) connected to my Aleph 1.2 mono blocks (250 w/ch class A). Let me tell you, hah! Now, the newer Pass line stages like the XP-22 and XP-32 are supposed to be terrific; I seem to remember the XP-22 landed an best of something award from Stereophile a few years back. Next, I've listened to Audio Research line stages in the Ref 5, 5 SE and 6 SE variety, and all I have to say is woahhhhh. These are very nice. Go to a brick and mortar store that sells Pass and ARC equipment, bring your most favorite discs or music on a DAP or thumb drive. Listen to it then buy. Happy hunting. |
- 94 posts total