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Who needs a Diamond Cantilever...? šŸ’

So suddenly, there seems to be a trend for Uber-LOMC cartridges released with Diamond Cantilevers...šŸ˜±
As if the High-End MC cartridges were not already overpriced....?!
Orofon have released the MC-ANNA-DIAMOND after previously releasing the Limited Edition MC-CENTURY...also with Diamond Cantilever.
Then thereā€™s the KOETSU BLOODSTONE PLATINUM and DYNAVECTOR KARAT 17D2 and ZYX ULTIMATE DIAMOND and probably several more.

But way back in 1980....Sony released a Diamond-Cantilevered version of its fine XL-88 LOMC Cartridge.
Imaginatively....they named this model the XL-88D and, because it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world (costing 7500DM which was more expensive than a Volkswagen at the time)....Sony, cleverly disguised this rare beast to look EXACTLY like its ā€™cheapā€™ brother with its complex hybrid cantilever of "special light metal held by a carbon-fibre pipe both being held again by a rigid aluminium pipe".
The DIAMOND CANTILEVER on the 88D however......was a thing of BEAUTY and technological achievement, being formed from ONE PIECE OF DIAMOND including the stylus šŸ¤ÆšŸ™šŸ½

Iā€™ve owned the XL-88 for many years and recently discovered that it was my best (and favourite) cartridge when mounted in the heavy Fidelity Research S-3 Headshell on the SAEC WE-8000/ST 12" Tonearm around my VICTOR TT-101 TURNTABLE.
Without knowing this in advance.....I would not have been prepared to bid the extraordinary prices (at a Japanese Auction Site) that these rare cartridges keep commanding.
To find one in such STUNNING CONDITION with virtually no visible wear was beyond my expectations šŸ˜ƒ

So how does it sound.....?
Is there a difference to the standard XL-88?
Is the Diamond Cantilever worth the huge price differential?
Is the Pope a Catholic....?

This cartridge simply ā€™blows my mindā€™...which is hard to do when Iā€™ve had over 80 cartridges on 10 different arms mounted on two different turntables šŸ¤Æ
As Syntax said on another Thread:-
When you have 2 identical carts, one regular cantilever and the other one with diamond cantilever (Koetsu Stones for example), the one with diamond cantilever shows more details, is a bit sharper in focus and the soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. They can sound a bit more detailed overall with improved dynamics
Iā€™ll leave it at that for the time being. I will soon upload to YouTube, the sound comparisons between the two Sony versions on my HEAR MY CARTRIDGES THREAD.

But now Iā€™ve bought myself a nightmarish scenario.......
There is no replacement stylus for this cartridge!
There is no replacement cantilever for this cartridge!
Each time I play records with it, I am ā€™killingā€™ it a bit more šŸ„“šŸ˜„
If I knew how long I had left to live......I could program my ā€™listening sessionsā€™ šŸ¤Ŗ
But failing this.....I canā€™t help but feel slightly uncomfortable listening to this amazing machine.
128x128halcro
dover
2,229 posts
 
@halcroĀ 

If they could do this in the 1980s before CNC machines, 3D Printing and Computer-Controlled Lasers.
Just a correction - Namiki was using lasers to manufacture nude mounted styli in jewelled cantilevers back in the 80's I believe - for example the micro ridge/microscanner styli in sapphire cantilevers.

Last year I wiped out my Koetsu on my secondary turntable - rummaging through my parts bin I found a couple of Talisman S from the 80's.Ā Interestingly one was mint original, the other had been retipped by Garrot Bros.
What blew me away was when cleaning them up and checking the stylus condition, the original, which had a nude mounted diamond in a sapphire cantilever, struck me as a work of art - both stylus and sapphire tube were as clear as crystal and there appeared to be no glue at all, the joint was seamless, and I could see straight through both the tube and stylus as if there were nothing there - if you have seen an xray of a pin embedded in a bone, thats what it looked like, except crystal clear.
When I look at the current price of moving coils - most dont have nude mounted styli until you get to the upper levels and there are some very expensive MC's out there with huge dobs of glue stuck on the end of the cantilever with a diamond embedded in the glue.

It does make you wonder how important what type of cartridge screws you use or how long you left the angels hair wire used in the coils in the sacred vat when all said and done the stylus, trying to the measure the microgroove vibrations, whilst generating humungous amount of friction, is mounted in glue.

I wonder if Namiki or whoever still makes cantilevers/styli are delivering to the standard that was being delivered back in the mid 80's. Our audio market is so miniscule in the scheme of things.Ā 


mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,496 posts
 
@dover, all modern cartridges use nude styli except the very cheapest ones which still use a shank. I thick what you mean is mounted without glue? I get the same image when I look at the Soundsmith ruby cantilever and diamond.Ā 
Modern adhesives dry to be extremely hard, just ask your dentist. There is an advantage to gluing the stylus to the end of the cantilever. Effective mass. You don not have to have extra cantilever at the end to hold the stylus. Diamond cantilevers have one major disadvantage.Ā  They are very heavyĀ  relative to boron which affects tracking and record wear. I think if you ask Peter Ledermann he would probably tell you that the extra mass was unacceptable. The stiffness of diamond can be matched by increasing the diameter of the boron cantilever a little still maintaining a weight advantage. The difference is like comparing a 200 lb individual with a 135 lb individual. Who do you think will win that boxing match?Ā 
chakster's avatar
chakster
6,144 posts
 
I wonder if Namiki or whoever still makes cantilevers/styli are delivering to the standard that was being delivered back in the mid 80ā€™s. Our audio market is so miniscule in the scheme of things.


In analog era nearly all those exotic cantilevers were widely used in MM and MI design too, none of them used today even in astronomically priced MC. Weā€™re in the digital era where analog is something exotic, for audiophiles it is also must be expensive by default (this is marketing). I think this is the main difference between 70s/80s and 2021.

However, some of those high quality cartridges were not cheap in the 70s/80s, but vinyl was the main media format for all. Industry made so many amazing cartridges back then so we could still buy them (NOS or almost unused).

When MM thread was so popular on audiogon many forgotten models were discovered by enthusiasts and audiophiles, the goal was the price vs. performance. 20 years ago with zero interest from the majority of audiophiles to vintage high-end MM or MC the prices were funny, almost nothing, something like $50-250 for amazing cartridges.

Some of those funny priced cartridges from the late 70ā€™s - early 80s were deadstock (unused) samples with Berylliym, Ruby, Sapphire, Boron Pipe, Ceramic Pipe and even Diamond cantilevers. Always Nude Diamond and often the best profiles like MicroRidge, MicroLine, Parabolic ... you name it. Even aluminum cantilever was completely different from what the market can offer today. Same about tonearms from that era and turntables (imo).

For younger generation the only chance to buy something exceptionally good without paying too much is to study and learn what was the best and why! Next step is to find it in perfect condition. The process is interesting, but not for everyone.

The industry today will not offer anything close for affordable price, the industry will offer their best for their target audience - rich audiophiles (usually for insane price).

There are many superior things in those old designs comparing to the new in the same price category made today.

Superior sound quality, after all, is the reason why people like the OP and others still looking for the best from the past! And they can identify where is the real gem or total junk.






edgewear
543 posts
 
@mijostyn, Iā€™m no expert in boxing, but if Iā€™m not mistaken the heavier individual usually wins. This seems to be an argument pro higher mass, which runs contrary to your - uh - point.

It seems the less effective mass the better, which is probably the reason diamond cantilevers are kept very short to compensate its higher intrinsic mass, apart from possible cost considerations. But then again, all else equal the joint pipe then needs to be longer, which also adds weight. Some manufacturers of boron cantilevers use what appears to be a metal piece between it and the stylus (Transfiguration Proteus for example), which presumably adds weight as well. I think these are sourced from Ogura. Iā€™ve also seen ruby and sapphire cantilevers made by Namiki that donā€™t have blobs of glue either. Instead you see a dark vertical shading of what appears to be hole in the mineral in which the stylus is slotted, probably with the help of a little adhesive.

Apart from the one piece assembly from Sony, the nicest solution Iā€™ve seen is on EntrĆ© cartridges of the 80ā€™s. Their EC-30 integrated headshell model has a fairly long boron cantilever with a V-shaped incision at the very end, in which a very small stylus tip nearly fits with one side of the stylus visible from the front view. There are no visible remnants of glue, so the bonding appears quite seamless. The same method is applied to the otherwise identical Soltair II, which has a very short oblique cut diamond (or perhaps sapphire, there's no information available) cantilever. Iā€™ve never seen this construction anywhere else and donā€™t know who made them. Iā€™ve even had my Japanese contact ask information from Matsudaira San at MSL, who designed these cartridges. Unfortunately it remains an unanswered question.

So there are many methods, each with their own merits and they all seem to work very well. As mentioned so many times, itā€™s the mixing and matching of all the parts that creates the final result. It seems that combinations are virtually endless and to me hearing these different results has become one of the most fascinating aspect of this hobby.

dover
2,229 posts
 
@mijostyn

I mean no glue.
The Soundsmith ruby cantilever looks like a toilet brush with crap on the end compared to the 1980's Sumiko Talisman S. There is no comparison - the Soundsmith is crude.Ā Having said that I like the Soundsmith cartridges in general.

Check out the Soundsmith ruby cantilevers here and see the wads of glue supporting the diamond
https://www.sound-smith.com/options-cantilever-and-stylus-shapes

Now here check out the sapphire cantilever with microridge stylus
https://ad-na-shop-en.myshopify.com/products/ć‚µćƒ•ć‚”ć‚¤ć‚¢ć‚«ćƒ³ćƒćƒ¬ćƒćƒ¼-惞悤ć‚Æ惭ćƒŖ惃ć‚ø針

Even though the current Namiki sapphire cantilever/microridge stylus is a bit cleaner than the Soundsmith, Ā what I am saying is that the sapphire cantilever/microridge stylus in the Talsiman S from the 80's appears to be far higher quality than what is on offer today, and the mounting is much cleaner, even though it was made by Namiki back then.Ā 

Maybe their current offering is a dumbed down version, I dont know. All I can see is that the 80's sapphire cantilevers with microridge styli as used by Sumiko at the time appear to be of a far higher quality than what is on offer today. I wish I had the tools to photograph the Talisman stylus - you would be shocked.



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