Vintage tubes - facts, science, technology & empirical evidence VS. marketing, myth & hype


Sorry. Long post. I hope you find the premise interesting and useful. And hope my writing below is not too bone-headed. Please feel free to correct or point out any misstatements or errors in my thinking.

This is not intended to be a controversial thread. At the outset I am not staking out a position. My questions are sincere and are not intended to poke anyone in the eye. The ultimate focus of my question has to do with the performance of vintage tubes as they compare to current production tubes. I am asking because it seems to me that there is a lot of marketing hype & perhaps some myth and wishful thinking when it comes to vintage tubes. There is also a rich body of collective experience. And, it seems, consensus that certain brands, factories, vintages and specific types of tubes are better than their peers and are "worth" the extra money they command. Of course, the principle of diminishing returns applies here. Right?

Do measures of voltage gain, transconductance, plate resistance, noise and microphony tell the whole story? Are they sufficient for predicting performance? To what extent do they predict longevity? Or is longevity primarily a function of empirical collective experience? What about the materials science aspect of vintage vs. modern tubes?

It seems that every company that produces tubes works hard to refine their design and balance innovation with "faithfulness to the vintage design", production processes, materials to make good sounding tubes. Even so, not all tubes from a given factory will perform the same, hence the testing and grading relative to the measures above and the consequent sorting into hierarchies of ascending levels of performance and price.

It also seems to me that performance will be closely tied to the circuit design and execution. A solid design would, it seems, be robust and produce excellent results with a wide range of tubes. A poor design might drive a tube in a way that is hard on the tube or requires a very specific technical characteristic for the circuit to perform well. Either of these situations could cause a user to come to completely different conclusions about what vintage/modern tube is "good" or excellent.

I have read some posts on this forum from certain individuals in which all "modern" or current production tubes or tubes produced by certain countries are dismissed out of hand. This seems like prejudice. Or it could, I suppose, reflect accumulated frustration with a given tube/brand/maker/etc as it performs in a given circuit.

I suppose I’m ultimately asking those who’ve more experience and who have invested more $$$ in tubes and tube rolling across various kinds of equipment to share their experience and opinions.

Thanks, in advance, for your patience. I hope to learn from those who are willing to share.




markusthenaimnut
Excellent post from @atmasphere.

@markusthenaimnut, as you already mentioned, the following tube sellers effectively mitigate the risk of purchasing vintage tubes. They also will provide recommendations based on your component(s). They are worth repeating.

Andy Bouwman - Vintage Tube Services: http://vintagetubeservices.com
Brent Jesse Recording: https://www.audiotubes.com
Upscale Audio (buy Kevin’s Stash grade): https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes

I have used all the above and can recommend them without hesitation. I would avoid E-Bay sellers, unless you either know them through personal experience, or through a trusted referral.

Other members often suggest:
RAM tubes: http://www.tubeaudiostore.com
@tvad and Ralph who actually engineers some of the finest tube gear on the planet, have it correct as do others who mention reputable experts who do also sell Tubes. Andy is a gem, have a look at his Arsenal of test equipment and his listening skills superb. Also consider the genius of Roger Modjeski ( rip i miss him ) and RAM tubes. One point being, there is more to nos and new tubes than just newly discovered Raven. For example the particular genius of Jim White of Aesthetix. While the use current production tubes with extra grading far and above final factory QC, they point customers to Vintage Tube for upgrade help. i could go on….

I helped build some of the most advanced and powerful tubes in orbit above earth, i can assure you it is a high precision business requiring very tight process control and quality ALL along the way. RAM tubes undergo some of the most rigorous testing, however lint in the tube ( contamination ) plagues many modern tubes.

Scarcity is not diminishing returns

Many designers ignore the RCA tube design manuals at peril

Some designers and firms have a culture of designing for tube longevity two that instantly come to mind McIntosh ( under Gordon Gow ) and Music Reference. There are more.

have fun, enjoy the journey…..


also for the OP, it helps IF you focus on tubes deployed across your system. My reference system , with various input path contains 25 tubes…..ah which to work first ?
It would take a lot of reading and trial and error over years to become an expert on tubes.  Apparent differences between the really good ones and so so tubes can be minor..

Asking for recommendations on this forum or others will usually result in recommendations of numerous different tubes

I recommend you talk to Andy or Brent (Upscale is no longer recommending tubes from what I've read here), decide who you like working with better, decide what changes in sound you want to hear from new tubes, take their recommendations and try a few of them yourself to determine what works best for you. 

Talking to the manufacturer of your gear can also be a good way to find out what works in that gear.