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When are people going to wake up and realize listening is a skill?

Thirty years ago I realized my lifelong dream of owning a 911. This is a fast car and so first thing I did was join PCA to get some track experience in order to be able to drive safely at speed. Of course I already knew how to drive. I was a "good driver" much better than most, etc, etc. 

PCA Driver Ed begins with several hours of classroom study. Track rules, safety, and some car control skills- braking, steering, throttle control. Yeah, yeah, whatever let's go!    

Then at the track they put you in your car with an instructor and you head out onto the track driving so freaking slow, actually normal freeway driving speed but it seems slow because, race track. So we play follow the leader with the instructor pointing out cones. Braking cones, turn-in cone, apex cone, track out cone. Each turn is numbered 1 thru 9, and there's turn worker stations, and they have flags, and you need to be watching and know what they mean, because you screw up and that is it your day is done. One full 20 min session, all the excitement of a tour bus.  

Bear with me. There's a connection here. Trust me. 

It goes on like this all day until finally we are signed off to drive solo but then there is an accident, flat bed, that's it for the day. 

Next time out I am so super confident instead of novice I sign up for Intermediate. Same cars, only the Intermediate drivers are supposed to somehow be better. Whatever.   

So out I go and Holy Crap everyone is passing me! I am driving as fast as I possibly can and being passed by everyone! Not only that, if you have ever driven as fast as you possibly can then you know this means braking as late as you possibly can, cornering as fast as you can, all of it. Which without fear of police is pretty damn fast! So fast I am not at all used to it, and so by the end of 20 min am literally sweating and exhausted!  

But I keep at it. Turns out all that classroom talk is about driving skills that are absolutely essential, not only to know but to be able to do. Threshold braking is braking right at the edge of lockup. Right at the very edge. Those cones are there for reference, to help you delay braking as long as possible. The turn-in cones are where you start turning, apex cone where you are right at the inside edge of the turn, track-out where you come out the other side. Do all this while at the very limit of traction and you are going very fast indeed. Without- and this is the essential part- without really trying to go fast.  

Learn the skills, practice the techniques until you are able to execute smoothly, efficiently, and consistently, and you will be fast. Without ever really trying to go fast.   

The connection here is, everyone thinks they hear just fine. Just like they think they drive just fine. In the classroom they talk about threshold braking, the late apex line, and controlling weight transfer with throttle. Just like here we talk about grain, glare, imaging and sound stage.   

I left one part out. All the track rats, they all start out talking about horsepower, springs and spoilers, thinking these are what makes the car fast. They are, sort of. But really it is the driver. By the time I was an instructor myself it was easy to go out with those same Intermediate drivers and it was like the commute to work it was so easy. My car was the same. Only my skills were greater.  

So when are people gonna wake up and realize listening is just like this? Nobody expects to become a really good golfer, tennis player or rock climber just by going out and doing it. Why are so many stuck talking watts? When are they gonna realize that is just like track rats talking hp?


128x128millercarbon
phasemonger
23 posts
 
When I was in music school in college, we spent an enormous amount of time on ear training and building listening skills. We learned and practiced very specific techniques to hear deeply into the music - instrumentation, intonation, timing, counterpoint, harmony, timbre, etc. By the end of those classes most of us could reliably transcribe a simple to moderately complex piece, and speak in detail about what was happening in the music. 

I don’t enjoy music any more than I did before all that training. I loved music before, and I love it now. I sure do hear a lot more than I did before, and that’s pretty cool. It definitely helps me evaluate changes I try with my system. 

I’m new to hifi and I have a very modest system. And I love it! Experimenting with tweaks is fun, and I’m slowly up leveling over time. Thanks to this forum, I’m slowly learning enough to think about my next meaningful upgrades. 

About MC: I’ve learned a lot from his posts and tried many of his recommendations. Most of what I’ve tried from him has made a BIG difference in sound quality for me. For some reason I don’t hear the arrogance in his tone others hear. I hear exuberance and passion, and abrupt replies to those who dismiss his experience. 

As for MC inventing electricity and being the World’s Most Interesting Man, read up on Multipotentials and the “Rainforest Mind.” Some people really are like that. I think it’s great. 

Being new new to hifi, I’m still a bit confused by the intense and nasty criticism I see on this and other forums. My post here will likely be shredded by somebody. In the work I do, people just don’t act that way. We laugh along with big exuberant personalities, take what’s good, and move on. I think it’s cool MC drives a Porsche and used his learning curve to illustrate learning to listen analytically. It seemed like a pretty decent analogy to me. 

I’d love to be the porcupine prick sitting inside a Porsche! When I finally buy my Porsche, maybe this year, I think I’ll get a vanity plate that says “Prick.” That’s good! 
cdamiller5
98 posts
 
Enjoyed the post MC. Listening is a learned skill either by reading about it, listening to what others experience  or by your own experience. Being a musician really helps as well.
It is unfortunate some people cannot get past their own financial situation. Using a sports car/driving analogy is relevant. 
Saying you drive or own a Porsche is not bloviating or bragging or whatever, just another life experience. 
tvad
11,620 posts
 
@phasemonger & @cdamiller5

Very happy to read your posts, as I was thinking about this yesterday.

Anyone who is (or was) a musician, and there are many in the Audiogon community including myself, is aware of listening as a skill. It’s taught in a musician’s first month of training, and refined over subsequent years.

Listening skills required to play in an ensemble or band readily transfer to listening skills helpful for evaluating an audio system.

The OP has this advantage, as he was also a student musician. French horn, as I recall.

Listening skills required in other professions also apply. Heavy mechanic comes to mind. Physician. Pilot. Therapist.

So, as far as the Audiogon community is concerned, the answer to when, is often now.


twoleftears's avatar
twoleftears
5,318 posts
 
Just stop and think for a moment why this thread exists at all.

It's sole purpose is to try to counteract the other currently running thread with a similar title.

Why anyone, ever, gets so invested in one brand to go to these lengths, beats me.  Especially one that's clearly mediocre.

But let's also remember that the OP, thanks to his sixth and seventh senses, knew beforehand that the speakers he'd ordered were going to sound fabulous.  And guess what, they did!

But not so supercalifragilisticexpialidociously fabulous that they didn't benefit from a multitude of after-market home-made tweaks, which incontestably turned them up to 11. 
jw944ts's avatar
jw944ts
325 posts
 
this discussion, if you remove some of the arrogance and criticism, is actually quite thought provoking.  Some good points have been made, but some of the analogy falls a bit short.  In  most sports(and I guess car racing is a sport, to a degree), there are absolute measurements, objective, of who wins, who is the fastest/strongest, etc.  A participant can  have fine shoes, a fine racket, the best suspension/engine, and even the most beautiful /perfect technique, but not be a winner or the best.
The perception on home reproduced sound certainly does have objective things that can be described, and experience does garner our ability to pick those things out and have the vocabulary to describe them, but at the end of the day, the experience still is subjective, and one individual can enjoy one type of "sound" that differs from another listeners preference.  Perhaps oenophilia is a better analogy....Perhaps this all goes back to Harry Pearson's "absolute sound", the truly live experience.  Some recordings and systems approach this, and those are limited, IMHO, to certain types of music and venues.  Otherwise, our systems do well to "remind us" of the live experience.....Some of our participants are more or less confident/arrogant/opinionated than others...that is what you call "personality"
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