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Jazz And Speaker Placement

Inspired by the purchase of a new pair of speaker stands (custom made for my LS50s, whatever good that does), I just went through a painful reevaluatIon of my system’s speaker placement. A lot of reading—particularly into the SBIR phenomenon, along with KEF’s own literature—and even more experimentation. Two guidelines: No rules and no big money on footers.

The last time I tried this, I wound up with the speakers on spikes, 4” from the speaker wall, with socks stuffed into the ports. (Some members of this forum may not have heard: I’ve done away with the terms “front” and “back” walls, along with the confusion and explanations that always accompany then, in favor of the terms speaker wall and listener wall. Please use these terms going forward.)


The first person to hear this setup asked, “Where’s the bass?” He was right. The sound had been tightened within an inch of it’s life. Bass and drums were staccato, with plenty of black space audible. But that’s not the way bass sounds, nor a kick drum. They are soft instruments, with lots of attack and decay. They are not “transients,” at least not in the way that I understand that word. (To me, “transient” has about the same descriptive power as ‘postmodern.”)

This was “audiophile bass,” to borrow Paul McGowan’s phrase, and it had to go. The socks had been long gone by the time the new stands arrived, now, following the advice of McGowan and our own MillerCarbon, I got rid of the spikes and replaced them with a dot of poster putty. Played around with the positioning but kept them in the SBIR-friendly spot close to the wall.


“Miss You” by The Rolling Stones was my reference bass sound during all of this. Great bass line and it now sounds glorious. But I’m still new enough at this game to question my own ears. So allow me to ask the jazz lovers on this forum a question:

Bill Evans’s famous stand at the Village Vanguard has been issued on two albums (probably more). The Paul Motian-heavy “Sunday At” and the more normal sounding “Waltz For Debbie.” In my new setup, I’m “Waltz,” Motian and LeFaro are as loud in the left channel as Evans does in the right. (I may have the channels reversed.) Is this how it’s supposed to sound? In the old days, Evans dominated. Now the famous interplay among this trio is more clear.


It sounds good but it’s definitely a change. Is this how it’s supposed to be?

Worried in Williamsburg.
paul6001
nitewulf
425 posts
 
I mean it’s not just bass, my speakers placed on my desk closed to the walls sounded muddy due to the lower mids overtaking other frequencies. Now away from walls, on stands they sound great.

Williamsburg eh? I used to dance at Output, go to M Noodle Shop at 3 AM in the morning, grab some beef noodle soup with chili peppers and catch the G train home.
zlone
756 posts
 
If it sounds as good as you say, then you have a good solution. In my situation it booms if I get too close. Glad you love your system.

I hear what you are saying about bass not being some simple transient. Proper bass at all volumes is of highest priority in my system. Getting that full rise and fall with the long tail of natural bass is critical. If all you hear is a thump, that ain't it.

I get the apartment thing, subs are probably not a good idea. Visited NYC in early 2020 right before COVID changed everything, caught shows at the Vanguard (w/Ron Carter!) and The Jazz Standard.
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
Nitewulf, I’m actually in Fort Greene, a few stops down the G train. But I had to stretch for the alliteration. 

The night you describe used to be so normal. Now it just doesn’t happen any more. I saw The Hold Steady at Brooklyn Bowl in Williamsburg not too long before the pandemic got serious. That was also fun but normal. I didn’t know it would be the last live music I would see until . . . forever?

I was walking by Radio City the other day and it was sold out for a Gabriel Inglesias concert. (The third Inglesias to go big?) I’m not sure I would rush into a packed Radio City these days. I’m vaxxed and I would rank myself as low on the COVID fear scale. But I don’t know. It’s a big place, very spacious above, but that’s still a lot of people. 

Zlone, the Jazz Standard closed for good. I liked that place, liked the BBQ upstairs. Gone. 

The Vanguard says it will be reopening September 14. That place has bands like no other. But . .. I used to say that the most expensive activity on earth was going to a baseball game. A typical game: $75 for not very good seats, $12 for a hot dog, $18 for a beer. Of course, it’s a baseball game so you can’t not get them. Several rounds, in fact. It’s a vacation in the Caribbean. 

But the Village Vanguard might top the Mets. How much was Ron Carter? $50? And if you go to the early show the clock is ticking like a guillatine. 10 pm and you’re out. Like ballparks that charge separate admission fees for a double-header. I don’t think the beers are $18 but they’re no bargain.

But what I wouldn’t give to be getting ripped off by the Vanguard right now.
zlone
756 posts
 
Yes, I heard the Jazz Standard closed, bummer. Good food and a good space. We actually went to see Emmet Cohen at the Vanguard, but the bonus was Ron Carter was playing bass with them. $35 a ticket, not bad. We would have gone to any show as the trip was planned before the tickets were bought. I really wanted to see a piano trio, so it was a happy surprise to see them on the bill. Yep, definitely no lounging around after the early show, move along folks. Still worth it.
nitewulf
425 posts
 
Paul, I lived in Fort Greene actually at the time, and always took the G to either Greenpoint or WB on the weekends. I was by the Fulton Street stop. No 9, with the broccoli tacos are a perennial favorite.

At GP after a night of drinking and live music, I'd head to Taqueria la Nortena and order a spicy chicken soup, which can make a dead man walk.

And at WB or GP I'd just randomly pop in anywhere with live music, Polish bars with very hardcore metal, The Knitting Factory for indie, and Skinny Dennis for country music!

As for live jazz, I was at Mezzrow in June when things seemed for a second to be moving back to normal. I love Mezzrow because I can walk in anytime without standing in a huge line like Smalls (or the midtown spots). Anyway, it was a great show that night, like most nights - topped it off with Japanese single malts at a low key Japanese bar. But haven't been back since, cause Delta and things have gone downhill again. 

Not to mention the numerous shows at Central Park or Prospect Park Bandshell, and all the stuff at Lincoln Center.

Either way those days seem so far away now, and they weren't even that long ago.
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