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Cables that measure the same but (seem?) to sound different

I have been having an extended dialogue with a certain objectivist who continues to insist to me that if two wires measure the same, in a stable acoustic environment, they must sound the same.

In response, I have told him that while I am not an engineer or in audio, I have heard differences in wires while keeping the acoustic environment static. I have told him that Robert Harley, podcasters, YouTuber's such as Tarun, Duncan Hunter and Darren Myers, Hans Beekhuyzen, Paul McGowan have all testified to extensive listening experiments where differences were palpable. My interlocutor has said that either it is the placebo effect, they're shilling for gear or clicks, or they're just deluded.

I've also pointed out that to understand listening experience, we need more than a few measurement; we also need to understand the physiology and psychological of perceptual experience, as well as the interpretation involved. Until those elements are well understood, we cannot even know what, exactly, to measure for. I've also pointed out that for this many people to be shills or delusionaries is a remote chance at best.

QUESTION: Who would you name as among the most learned people in audio, psychoacoustics, engineering, and psychology who argue for the real differences made by interconnects, etc.?
128x128hilde45
clearthinker's avatar
clearthinker
1,582 posts
 
The sound that gets to the brain and is 'heard' is different to that entering the ears.  Because there is a brain in between.  The brain is like an AD converter.  It adds and subtracts artifacts.  Indeed it is much less compliant than an AD converter since it adds emotion (aka placebo effect).  Psycho issues beset those who report differences.

They don't like it but only consistent differences found in double blind ABX tests carry any validity at all.  All other results are nulled by non sound-related brain activity.

Yes @rudyb it does 'all become more difficult in a blind test'.
Many report that emotional and nervous issues reduce their discriminatory ability.  This is just a cover-up because they do not 'hear' the differences in a correctly implemented scientific test.  There should be minimum delay between presentations of A B and X.

I repeat: reports in circumstances where I listen to my system, spend 5 or 10 minutes changing wires, and then listen again 15 minutes later and report differences CARRY NO VALIDITY AT ALL.  
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
5,090 posts
 
@avitacom vitacom

"Measurements, e.g., resistance, inductance, capacitance, are, these days, easily made , recorded and compared but are gross and crude compared to the kinds of phenomena which may be discerned by the human ear and brain such as, say, timbre. The simple measurements aren’t going to help us predict how a device (cable) will contribute to SQ."

Well said.

FWIW:
British Audiophile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Opv0Zx6Mc&t=929s&ab_channel=ABritishAudiophile
Audio Excellence: https://youtu.be/SPBlWgNqK_g?t=620

 
@dynamiclinearity arity
you don't know if some factor is missing from your measurements until you discover all the measurements. We usually discover new measurements when our observations are no longer predictable by our current measurements.

Exactly. The history of science is (when successful) and expanding discovery of what exists. Science presents hypotheses -- this theory is the best explanation (so far) of the phenomena in question (so far) for the purposes defined (so far).

@sdl4  -- Thank you -- I will!
djones51
4,947 posts
 
"Measurements, e.g., resistance, inductance, capacitance, are, these days, easily made , recorded and compared but are gross and crude compared to the kinds of phenomena which may be discerned by the human ear and brain such as, say, timbre. The simple measurements aren’t going to help us predict how a device (cable) will contribute to SQ."

Timbre is the fundamental plus the harmonics and can be measured. I’m not sure why it seems to take away enjoyment from listening to music if we can also understand, explain and measure what we hear. Take a single electric guitar note with a fundamental 96.5 hz and the harmonics 96.5 x 2 x3 x4 x5 etc.. These can be measured and shown on a FR plot, different instrument different measurements different timbre. If the resistance, inductance and capacitance of the wire differs by enough to alter the FR then it will affect the timbre.
avitacom
90 posts
 
djones51, your point is well taken.  I was searching for a musical quality which could be discerned by listeners but not possibly measured by existing guages.  “Warmth,” or “brightness,” would have been a better choice than timber.  I believe that most of us would agree that state-of-the art instrumentation is insufficient to describe, wholly, the glorious, human experience of music.
djones51
4,947 posts
 
I agree that measurements can't describe the human experience of music but I assume the OP was interested in the mechanical reproduction of music. 
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