@tomic601
You and me both!
You and me both!
Referent point
Look if we are going to get anywhere in this discussion on speakers,,,we've been at here now going on 20years +, We need to figure out how we are going to go forward into this 21st C, which now is 21 yrs and going.
Time to establsih some sort of reference posit, a speaker that we can all agree on which is neutral, efficient and worthy to be considered true high fidelity, Last qualification, is that any amp can drive the Speaker, From Jadis JA 800 monos blaocsk a 4 chassis 800 lb amplifier to a 1 watt SET amp.
Sure I realize this is asking for the impossible,
'But really its not.
There is such speakers.
These would be the wide bands.
You know the Fostex/Lowther you atried back in the day and found less than high fidelity.
Well we should not throw the babt out with the bath water.
The wide bands were developed in Berlin and Chicago back in the 1920;s. and IMHO are the finest design in any speaker (exception are the horns).
We can not make the big horns as reference, as few of us here can afford the big guys, + many other issues which make horns not a practical reference point.\
The only speaker i know that can fill the parameters to be designated as The Reference Point, as wide bands.
All speakers must be judged next to a high tech wide band.
Wide bands will expose the glares and flaws in your speaker, which are completely hidden from your ears at the moment.
I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity its high time to face the facts of
1) bigger is not better
2) throwing money at a speaker will result in great sound
3) thinking outside the box is the creative approach to discovering high fidelity.
4) a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet)
Time to establsih some sort of reference posit, a speaker that we can all agree on which is neutral, efficient and worthy to be considered true high fidelity, Last qualification, is that any amp can drive the Speaker, From Jadis JA 800 monos blaocsk a 4 chassis 800 lb amplifier to a 1 watt SET amp.
Sure I realize this is asking for the impossible,
'But really its not.
There is such speakers.
These would be the wide bands.
You know the Fostex/Lowther you atried back in the day and found less than high fidelity.
Well we should not throw the babt out with the bath water.
The wide bands were developed in Berlin and Chicago back in the 1920;s. and IMHO are the finest design in any speaker (exception are the horns).
We can not make the big horns as reference, as few of us here can afford the big guys, + many other issues which make horns not a practical reference point.\
The only speaker i know that can fill the parameters to be designated as The Reference Point, as wide bands.
All speakers must be judged next to a high tech wide band.
Wide bands will expose the glares and flaws in your speaker, which are completely hidden from your ears at the moment.
I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity its high time to face the facts of
1) bigger is not better
2) throwing money at a speaker will result in great sound
3) thinking outside the box is the creative approach to discovering high fidelity.
4) a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet)
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- 84 posts total
Reference speakers are speakers others have access to. It doesn't have to be a great speaker, it has to be a reference. If your referring to HIGH quality HiFi, there is no reference. There is a matter of opinion and certain preferences about what people like. Nothing more nothing less. The person who has hearing loss from 8K and gone by 12K is NOT going give a hoot about 25khz speakers other than to look at..:-) There is more than one standard being met here too. Looking like something made from surplus cargo containers AND looking like crap isn't in the cards either.. I like what I LIKE. A lot of speakers today are really functional and sound fantastic but are so UGLY. You can't put enough lipstick on some of these designs, no different with great sounding speakers of old to.. JUST UGLY and big. There are reasons for speaker grills. :-) I KEEP hearing this 1920s rant about Chicago and Berlin, 101 year later OP. A reference speaker would NEVER be hard to find or difficult to build. It's a reference. 40hz to18khz Maybe something like a JBL100 without the crazy cost (NOW). It's not a perfect speaker it's a reference.. Regards |
stringreen5,988 posts09-18-2021 8:54pmTo these ears what horns do better than most is their ability to get closer to the dynamics of live music. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course a big expensive world class horn system is w/o a doubt the only true Reference Point Speaker. Thing here is, how many of us will ever get a opportunity to hear sucha system? And how many of us here have the cash to afford a horn system of that Reference Point quality? For these 2 reasons and many others, horns are disqualified as being chosen as Reference Point. So the next best thing , is.....Wide Banders. WE have to be realistic here. All members have access to a wide bander. There are 3-4 reasons why WBers are the chosen speaker for being designated Reference Point. |
jd555 posts09-19-2021 1:04amOp i like where you going with this but maybe we should collectively pick ten attributes that make the best reference point and and always try to reference those when describing equipment. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Great jd55 So at least you and a few others are on board. Others here want to re-rail this train. Hey new ideas throughtout history always had the resistors, the deniers.. Then 100 yrs later the original idea pops up again, and only then, finds acceptance. The 1929 movie theater huge wide bands were the *bombs* of their day. You had no boxes with drivers of low sens /xovers... Then you can follow the history of speakers through the decades. I wonder had we wide bands on display in our audio shops back in the 70’s/80’s, would some of us chosen WBers over low sens types?? THere were the Jensen’s. in the late 50’s/60’s, But I’ve not heard them. And of course we should not forget the EV/Jensen horns around this time. Some folks still hold onto these old high quality speakers and believe they are as good as it gets. As good as these EV/Jensen wide bands/horns may be, I believe the new high tech wide bands developed in china today, are far superior to these old standards. 10 characteristics/qualities that designate WBers as The Reference Point Speaker. I’ve given most of the top reasons why WBers have earned this emminent award. The 1 most critical factor is ~~~Midrange~~ Fq’s say 300hz-say...3khz... based on my limited exp, these new WBers seem to present music like no box/xover is able to voice. HIgher sensitivity + perfect midrange gives WBers a unique and distinctive place in speaker techology. We have gone full circle, What began as wide banders in Chicago and Berlin , 1929, now has come fulll cicrle back to WBers, as the speaker of choice for high fidelity. High Sens WBers are super amp friendly , La Creme de la creame is under 9 oclock gain on your amp. This is when your amp is not pushing, most happy. WBers with their 92db+ sensitivity allows the musica to be gently coaxed from the amplifier, YOu can actually feel how smooth and delicate is the music played overa WBer speaker vs a box/xover low sens type, The ones in your listening room. You only imagine you've heard your music via the low sens speakers in your system. You've been led astray. Its alla delusion. When you acutally hear a high tech high sens WBer, your ears will be opened, you will hear the light-ness of beautiful music. Especially you jazz fan.s The new high tech WBers is the ONLY speaker you should consider, if you really want to exp lifelike vocals, gorgeous midrange colors, zero dis-coloration (-distortion/= fatigue) For my classical music, now finally all the notes are being fully represented in details and dynamics. The Seas Thors are a joke next to the new high tech WBers. Troels Gravesen's incredible high tech designs are jokes next to a high tech WBers. All has to do with higher sens and midrange. Scanspeak and Seas are hadicaped in both depts next to a WBer. |
- 84 posts total