Fidelity vs. Musicality...........Is there a tug of War?

@mahgister I usually enjoy and mostly agree with your posts except this:

Timbre perceptive experience cannot be reduced to a mathematical additive bunch of frequencies and harmonics only ... Acoustic of small room play a great role more than the new hype electronical gear

Timbre is in fact exactly that, it's the fundamental frequency (pitch) with its associated harmonics that allow you to recognise what instrument it is. The effect of the room will determine how you perceive that timbre.

I do definitely agree with you about the room however. You may have noticed that I often join in a thread about acoustics and hold that the room has a huge influence on the resultant sound to the point where I have stated that a mediocre system in a properly treated room (beyond just a rug and curtains) will provide far greater enjoyment and reward than just throwing together a bunch of mega-expensive 'best in class A'  🙂












 

Dear lemonhaze it is a misunderstanding...


If you read my post i specifically said that timbre cannot be reduced to fundamental frequency and harmonics ONLY...A  relatively low cost dac cannot replace room acoustic for  example...And most of the times even the costlier dac cannot...


All acoustic science and psycho-acoustic science cannot be reduced to Fourier transform...There is more in "timbre" concept than meet the eye....

If it was  not the case there will be no definition of "timbre" in 5 points at least like for example in this wikipedia definition:

Many commentators have attempted to decompose timbre into component attributes. For example, J. F. Schouten (1968, 42) describes the "elusive attributes of timbre" as "determined by at least five major acoustic parameters", which Robert Erickson finds, "scaled to the concerns of much contemporary music":[4]

1. Range between tonal and noiselike character
2. Spectral envelope
3. Time envelope in terms of rise, duration, and decay (ADSR, which stands for "attack, decay, sustain, release")
4. Changes both of spectral envelope (formant-glide) and fundamental frequency (micro-intonation)
5. Prefix, or onset of a sound, quite dissimilar to the ensuing lasting vibration

@ mahgister, yes a misunderstanding. All good.

The timbre of a sound is formed in it's entirety and does not depend on the room but is influenced by the room. By that I mean any instrument could play a note in an anechoic chamber or out in an open field and it's timbre will be heard.

In the wikipedia definition there is no mention of the acoustic propagation. As I see it the decay mentioned in regard to ADSR (point 3) is the natural decay of the instrument and not the decay behaviour of the acoustic environment which affects your perception of that instrument's timbre.

This link:  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/fidelity-vs-musicality-is-there-a-tug-of-war?lastpage=true&am... where they claim ' the duration of a sound also affects how we perceive its pitch, loudness and timbre'
The sentence in parenthesis seems to support my understanding of timbre.

I find this issue of timbre fascinating. It is something I have tried to understand but gave up.

I’m interested to attempt to know how the choice of an amplification medium is material in reproducing the timbre in the recorded performance.

This has been mentioned, but I’m still confused. An amp that reproduces detail/resolution may sound white/clinical/thin - is this the cutting out all the complex aspects of timbre? Or recognizing that aspects of timbre don’t exist in the recording in the first place (which clearly can’t be true)?

On the other hand, does a tube amp add artificially to the timbre that was recorded or does it just amplify the existing complex harmonics in a manner that may or may not be correct? Or some combination? Am I confusing technical terms?

Forgive me if I’m asking the wrong questions - there are knowns which are obviously unknown to me, see me struggle. I’m asking this from a measurement/objective perspective, if possible. I don’t like using the words distortion or colour - means different things to different people and handwaving ensues.

The timbre of instruments is determined by the harmonic spectrum and the attack and decay of each harmonic relative to the fundamental.
This means changing the frequency response (local ratio of harmonics opposite the fundamentals) or the decay of harmonics needs to alter.
Amps do not change decay and attack so that leaves ... frequency response.