B&W Matrix 801 Series II

Elee, I do agree with the comments in your post as I have listened to 801’s many times , and owned a pair of Matrix 802’s some years ago.

My post is based on an experience I had while working at a B&W dealer. Sold a customer some B&W’s, not 801’s, but a lesser model that had a sensitivity of 88-90db, with quality electronics. Then he started having trouble with blown tweeters, so we repaired, increased power to maximum for the speaker, and he still had problems. So I went to his home and discovered he was doing exactly what Wemfan described, playing his guitar as he played the system. I then swapped the B&W speakers for some Klipsch towers with a much higher sensitivity. He was happy with the change because the system did what he wanted it to do, and never had another problem.

I’m not saying anything bad about the 801’s, I just think they are the wrong speaker for how Wemfan would try to use them.

After reading all of the posts I am leaning toward seeing if I can borrow them for a test drive depending on what shape the speakers are in (thanks CT0517). I do have a Parasound A31 3 channel amp that is 250 watts @8ohm. I just got it and haven't heard it yet. Should that amp be a good match for the B&Ws? I bought the Parasound for a theater bedroom system i am working on. I don't need this system to be loud. I guess I am looking for a smoother sound compared to the Khorn system. Something clear and musical. Really, I don't know how to describe it but something in a different direction from the MAC/Khorn system.

Also, you guys mentioned getting them up high. How high? The floor is hardwood. Elee you mentioned you upgraded the crossover. How do you go about that and what are the symptoms that a crossover needs upgrading? can I still acquire a Bass Alignment Filter or are they hard to come by?

All of the opinions are very helpful. Thanks...

Hi Wemfan

another long post - sorry - as I have my coffee and the caffeine kicks in. :^(

I am leaning toward seeing if I can borrow them for a test drive

Right on - there is no better way - in your own room with your own equipment.

I do have a Parasound A31 3 channel amp that is 250 watts @8ohm.

It will work to try out the speakers. I have not heard that amp.
But remember you are asking this question on the speaker forum
You will get audiophile 2 channel nut jobs -myself included - answering.
If you ask this question on the Home Theater forum you would probably get a different response

So take this with a grain of salt.

The A31, like all Halo-branded amplifiers, is a high-bias Class A-AB amplifier, meaning the first few watts - in this case seven - are delivered in pure Class A fashion before switching over to AB status.

taken from here.

http://hometheaterreview.com/parasound-a31-three-channel-power-amplifier/

In comparison my old Classe CA300 two channel amp stayed in class A for 30 watts.
So this Parasound was designed for Home Theater - again my opinion.
The 801's are revealing and will let you know when the amp is in A/B.

I am looking for a smoother sound compared to the Khorn system. Something clear and musical

Are you looking for an addictive midrange combined with liquid and shimmering highs ?

If SS you need to stay with Class A as long as possible. The 801's are just too revealing.

Definitely try your McIntosh set at 4 ohms sitting closer.

Also not to get ahead of ourselves but your parasound has gain controls.

I would try hooking it up to the woofers and hooking your McIntosh on the mids and tweeters.
Adjusting the parasound gain to where you have your preferred tonal balance. bass/mid/highs.
But this "IS" getting ahead of ourselves.......

Also, you guys mentioned getting them up high. How high?

I would listen to them on their castors/spikes first - then try them higher later.
The Sound Anchor stands are very expensive.

Some more facts you should be aware of :
Two matrix versions of 801's were made s2 and s3.
There are differences.

S3 used a different crossover than s2 - less component count.
Better isolated mid and hf boards.
Bass inductors with an iron dust core .
Rotating midrange – tweeter head assembly was permanently connected. (from 3 to 4 pin delivering separate ground signals to midrange and tweeter)
Magnetic fluid cooling of the tweeter (like the 800 matrix) - the reason the apoc protection eliminated (circuits needed for this were also removed)

imo - the S2 is great candidate for a crossover upgrade.
I have a couple of friends that have done this. Thread poster Elee has also done this with his S2.
The S3 is not as great a candidate for the reasons above. This is a personal call.
I came real close to doing the upgrade with Northcreek.
I had a number of direct discussions with B&W senior people - they convinced me not to do it with the S3.
this included identifying the listed differences between them. Its a $2500 cost to do if I recall.

So botomline all this makes the stock factory 801 S3 more desirable than the Stock factory 801 S2.
prices reflect this.


fwiw -
I drove 10 hours one way to pick up my S3 in '94. And returned same day.
The 801's always seem to become available locally when you are not looking for them.
Funny how this works.
So local 801's you can pick up are rare.

Either way 801 S2 or 801 S3 stock - you can buy and try and sell for same or more money if it doesn't work out.
What other speaker can claim this - I'd like to know brand/model names.
Its a win -win situation for everything except your back to carry the damn things.

I see alot of value $$$ just in the matrix cabinetry on its own - without considering the electronics and drivers.
I also own B&W DM70's - Electrostat hybrids from the 70's.
Their cabinet construction still to today hasn't degraded. I appreciate quality like this.

Wemfan - the B&W filter/equalizer comes up occasionally here and on Ebay, or kijiji, etc...
Usually around $150 - 250 from what I have seen. I own Krell, Maughan and B&W versions.

You can read more about them here.

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/b-w/800-series-bass-alignment-filter.htm

Tls49
My post is based on an experience I had while working at a B&W dealer. Sold a customer some B&W’s, not 801’s, but a lesser model that had a sensitivity of 88-90db, with quality electronics. Then he started having trouble with blown tweeters, so we repaired, increased power to maximum for the speaker, and he still had problems.

Hi Tls49 - am curious. Which speakers with which amps ?

Cheers

Tls49-
No offense meant. In fact, I too used to practice my electric guitar to the stereo. I found that I had to either turn the guitar amp (Fender ChampII 70W) way down or away from me, or crank up the stereo to be able to hear both. In my room of 9X15X30, I sit about 10' from the speakers. At normal listening levels, I get about 80-85 db at the sweet spot. To get 90db+, I need to increase the volume to past 2/3, which I don't like to do.

Wemfam-

Speakers are about 9-9.5" off the floor. B&W made purpose built stands, of course no longer available. Arcic made a sand-filled box, which you could probably do yourself. I bought my Sond Anchors used ( still available direct, bu pricey).

See the following thread RE: the crossovers - http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=speakers&m=274098.
The upgrade is available from here - http://www.northcreekmusic.com/801web.html
Realize, I had these speakers 22 years before upgrading. The increase in sound quality is not night & day (IMO), but for me, worth it. the bass goes deeper, is more punchy & tight, & there is a sense of unrestrained openness.

RE the BAF-
1) B&W made one as an option. They are available frequently on ebay (look for either the model for the 801 matrix or the variable model for the 800 matrix). I wouldn't pay more than $150-175.
2) Hifi dealer in Colo. Listen Up made the Maughanbox. I paid $400 on ebay for mine.
3) JPS labs made aftermarket filters. IMHO, not worth what people are asking for them used ($900+)
4) Krell made an after market unit that was adjustable for the 800 Matrix line. Probably the best of the bunch, but going for around $1500+ when you can find them. (Dan D'Agostino [started Krell amps] made these for his personal B&W speakers at the time. B&W heard about it and suggested to Dan to sell them to B&W owners).

If you do audition the speakers, IMO I would place a throw rug between the speakers & your listening spot, otherwise you may find the speakers too bright.

Regarding the amp, the Parasound is probably acceptable. I'm currently using a Krell KAV-250, which is probably about the same. I'm convinced that I have not even come close to the potential of the speakers.

Hi Tls49 - am curious. Which speakers with which amps ?

Ct0517, As well as I remember, the speakers were DM604, or maybe DM605, and the last amp used was a 200w Forte 6.

I do agree that if Wemfan wants to try the MC275, he should use the 4 ohm tap since the speakers' impedance drops to 4 even though it is 8 ohm nominal, however I disagree with your bi-amping suggestion, as this will create a coherence problem. When bi-amping, you should always use identical amps in a vertical configuration. Read this post by a well respected amplifier designer, especially the last paragraph,

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1234896660&openfrom&6&4#6

Also, while working at that Audio dealer, was able to attend a CES show, and fortunate to meet Nelson Pass and his staff since we were a Threshold/Forte dealer. They also said that bi-amping should be done with identical amps, however their amps at that time did offer a slight twist to this. The Forte 6 and Forte 4 are identical, however the 6 is biased for A/AB at 200 watts, and the 4 is biased for pure class A at 50 watts, so use the 6 on the bottom and the 4 on the top.

Elee, absolutely nothing offensive in your posts. My son plays guitar, and he is definitely a Fender guy. He has a vintage black face Princeton that is in very nice condition, however another amp he really likes is one we found at a pawn shop for $20 many years ago. It is a small tweed Gretsch that is an exact copy of the original Fender Champ.