What CD player will warm my Thiel/Classe systm?

From what you just described, my recommendation to you as a "novice audiophile" is NOT to run out and buy a different CD player. Of course you may want to get a better CDP at some point, but this will have almost no bearing on your system's low frequency situation.

Listening to a portable through headphones with the bass boost engaged is not the way to judge accurate response, so if that is your subjective preference benchmark, you might be disappointed in this hobby. For better or worse, a speaker like a Thiel is designed to give flat response within its frequency range, so if a recording is bass-shy or if the treble is rolled off, that's the way it's going to sound, and audiophile preamps generally don't have tone controls to compensate. But even if you were to add an equalizer to the system, it could never duplicate the effect of your headphone rig.

As you surmise, the particular Thiel model you own is not designed to go all the way down in the bass (no small speaker does), and also won't exagerate the mid and upper bass instead for added "warmth". It's appropriate for smaller rooms, and listeners willing to live without the bottom 2.5 octaves being reproduced in full, who value its strengths elsewhere. This particular listening style and set of priorities is somewhat peculiar to one branch of the audiophile tree, and also dependent on the music being played. As you probably know, it wouldn't impress most kids who enjoy blasting hip-hop in their cars.

Whether it can give you Ron Carter is the question however. Integrating a sub for satisfactory results can be tricky. The Thiel subs probably would work fantastically with the 1.6, but as you note this seems a ridiculous proposition price-wise. Also, the Thiel subs are designed expressly to extend missing bass frequencies accurately -- not to 'goose' the whole lower end of the spectrum like a bass boost button, or to provide overt "warmth".

[Also, be aware that the word warmth has multiple meanings in audiophilia, not all of them having to do with frequency response per se. Prominent treble is considered to detract from warmth, as is a depressed lower midrange. Deep bass extension, but paradoxically also higher bass harmonic distortion and looser bass driver control, are typically thought of as adding warmth. Another meaning has to do with the harmonic signature imparted by gear in its reproduction of overtones. Anyway, this is why, when you ask about a warmer CDP, you won't necessarily get a solution to bass-shyness.]

What I'm wondering quite honestly is if you bought the wrong speakers. I'd appreciate you describing your room dimensions and listening tastes. Without this info, all you will get is all that you knew to ask for: pet recommendations for CD player shopping, rather than help with your problem.

Used tube player is your best bet. Cayin, Jolida, Consonance.

Thankyou, Zaikesman, for such a thoughtful response. With 20/20 hindsight I might have chosen different speakers (an audio retail shop led me down this particular path, but that's a different story). My challenge now is upgrading around what I have, on a limited budget, but in such a way that the end result produces synergy.

My problem is probably best addressed by others who have the Thiel 1.6s and have a sense for balancing their strengths and limitations. (By the way, the Sony discman is not my reference for sound quality, just an analogy to commuinicate what I was trying to accomplish -- more bottom end on about half of my 500 or so CD recordings of jazz, many on small labels with less than pristine recording quality.)

After weighing all the earlier comments, I drove for an hour today to the nearest audio showroom. Unfortuantely, they did not have a Jolida CDP or other tube players to audition, but they did let me listen to a Velodyne subwoofer with some B&W 704s. I think the sub is what I really want next, as I can turn it on or up depending upon the nature of the recordings to add more low frequency response. Now my question is: which sub would be best with my system? The Classe that drives it is rated 150 watts/channel. My room is about 20 x 30 with a high ceiling. I have the Thiels about 12 feet apart and sit in an equilateral triangle to them. Even the salesman today agreed that my budget and needs probably don't justify $3000 for the Thiel SS1.

I'm thinking I will upgrade the CDP down the line (when the tooth fairy brings me more funds), but finding a sub that will work well with my existing system may get me back to the immediate goal of enjoying music instead of worrying about equipment. Any experience of adding a sub with these speakers? Need I be wary of crossover problems or boominess with less expensive subs?

So, thanks again. I'm learning.

This Onkyo CDP--it's a garden variety mass-market CDP like you'd get at Circuit City? If so, it may not be that your system needs more "warmth" as much as it needs to get rid of harsh or brittle "bad" digital sound. A used Cary 303-200 would do that for maybe $1200. Or a used Meridian 506 for maybe half that.

The bass is probably a separate issue. But if you listen mainly to CD's, & you have a mediocre CDP, "more bass" may not increase your satisfaction that much.

I'd say focus on a good CDP first, then maybe a good equipment rack. A used REL Strata III sub for maybe $900 might be a good idea later.

"My room is about 20 x 30 with a high ceiling."

Aha! The good news is, your problem is identified. The bad news: upgrading your CDP isn't going take care of it. But no wonder you're here asking about ways to improve the sound.

Actually, the problem isn't your room -- that must be a great room. (Literally!) And it isn't the speakers, those are very good speakers. In fact, I'm not going to be so simplistic as to say the problem was the combination of the two, even though that's true.

The real problem lies (and I use that word advisedly) with the salesman who sold you that gear for that room. Either he neglected to ask the right questions that would have told him your needs, or he knew what he was getting you into, but chose instead to make an easier sale by catering to your stated budget and/or desire for compact gear (and, most likely, whatever brands/models you walked into the store positively-disposed toward from reviews and advertising). Either way he didn't earn his commission -- more like he saw you coming from jump street and pilfered it.

Anyway, this is where you are now: the 1.6's absolutely require a subwoofer to give anything like realistic response in your room. Which is not to say that adding one will cure everything you're hoing for, or that spending the same money (1.6's + sub) on a different pair of speakers (and not Thiels, fine as they are, or not new ones anyway) might not have been a better buy. But it's just the laws of physics which dictate that a pair of 6" woofer/mids -- even excellent ones with 3" voice-coils -- operating in cabinets with probably around 1.5 cubic feet of volume won't be adequate to drive circa 5,400-6,000 cubic feet of listening space (assuming a mere 9'-10' ceiling height, since you didn't specify other than to say "high") as the frequency descends.

And unlike some other small and small-woofered floorstanders or monitors, the 1.6, being a Thiel, doesn't have a shelved-down tweeter and a mid-bass hump to distract you from that reality (although to me the tweeter in the 1.6 doesn't sound quite as extended or detailed as those found in more costly Thiels, perhaps a wise and deliberate choice for this model). These are speakers that can sound great -- albeit still not with big balls in the low bass -- in rooms up to around 1,750 cubic ft. or so (example at the larger end of that scale: 12' x 18' x 8'). You can see the imperative -- since your room is at least 3X that volume, you should be having at least 3X the speaker in it.

Or use a subwoofer. I've actually auditioned the 1.6's in a room not far from the size of yours (in other words too big for the speakers), with and without a sub, and adding the sub can really help a lot. The one I heard them with was a smaller REL, but I'm not sure which model.

Steveaudio is probably right on target with this recommendation, for the reason that REL subs are designed to work strictly in "augmentation" mode, meaning they don't cross-over to the main speakers but simply add their LF response to them. The downside to this strategy is that it doesn't increase the volume level your small speakers can comfortably play at in a large room, so if you like to listen loud the 1.6's may still limit you in this area. The upside is that by augmenting rather than dividing the LF region between the sub and the mains, it will be much less difficult to get an acceptable transition between the two, because in your situation the 1.6's will need reinforcement in more than just the bottom 2 octaves.

By running a sub like an REL, which overlaps the mains through the mid-bass and *subtly* continues into the upper bass/lower midrange, dependent on how you set the contols and subject to adjustment with different recordings, you'll be able to add not just extension but also some of the warmer tonal balance that you are looking for. This won't be without some compromises -- for instance, it would easy to mess up stuff like male vocals or acoustic piano this way if abused, and certain aspects of reproduction will probably be a bit less natural no matter how judiciously the sub is adjusted because of how much you'll be asking it to do in this case -- but the advantages will almost certainly outweigh the disadvantages by a useful margin if done right. The only other caveat I can see is that a sub with a remote control might be most welcome in your situation, but I'm not sure which companies offer that. (Again, I think the Thiel sub would probably be outstanding for you, but don't think it makes as much sense in your situation unless you were upgrading the speakers -- to bigger Thiels in specific -- as well, though you could always take the incremental approach.)

However, I will disagree with Steveaudio about priorities. To me -- and I say this as a Thiel owner, who has gone from mass-market to mid-fi to high-end digital in my time with them -- you're probably better off getting the sub first if you're going to keep these speakers and continue using them in this room. I don't have any experience with your particular CDP, but most of the mass-market players from the past 15 years that I have heard tend to err on the 'warmer' side in terms of overall tonal balance, even if their treble presentation is not refined in and of itself, and their low bass may lack extension, control and dynamics.

In other words, when you do upgrade your Onkyo, don't be too surprised if you find out that it wasn't significantly thinning-out the balance, as much as perhaps doing things like flattening the soundstage, diminishing tonal and dynamic contrasts, glossing over fine detail, lacking extension at the frequency extremes, and giving a less defined, more amorphous presentation. And I'd say to save gear racks for last, if at all, since it sounds like you've got your stuff on a stable base, and besides which that whole topic is small potatoes compared to what your main necessity is at the moment. But my take is that you won't enjoy a new CDP nearly as much until you address the subwoofer first.

One more thing: I suspect you still may need to play around with set-up, sub or no sub. With the speakers 12' away and 12' apart, I imagine they're on the 20' (short) wall, firing down the 30' length of the room, and probably at least somewhat angled-in toward your ears? And that you don't have any acoustic surface treatments or stand-up damping devices? Please let us know about this, as well as your ceiling (height and construction), and how damped the room is in general (rugs? wall hangings? lots of furniture? or not -- lots of windows? much bare floor? concrete or brick anywhere?), and how far away from the wall your speakers are -- maybe further tuning is in order.