What CD player will warm my Thiel/Classe systm?

Thankyou, Zaikesman, for such a thoughtful response. With 20/20 hindsight I might have chosen different speakers (an audio retail shop led me down this particular path, but that's a different story). My challenge now is upgrading around what I have, on a limited budget, but in such a way that the end result produces synergy.

My problem is probably best addressed by others who have the Thiel 1.6s and have a sense for balancing their strengths and limitations. (By the way, the Sony discman is not my reference for sound quality, just an analogy to commuinicate what I was trying to accomplish -- more bottom end on about half of my 500 or so CD recordings of jazz, many on small labels with less than pristine recording quality.)

After weighing all the earlier comments, I drove for an hour today to the nearest audio showroom. Unfortuantely, they did not have a Jolida CDP or other tube players to audition, but they did let me listen to a Velodyne subwoofer with some B&W 704s. I think the sub is what I really want next, as I can turn it on or up depending upon the nature of the recordings to add more low frequency response. Now my question is: which sub would be best with my system? The Classe that drives it is rated 150 watts/channel. My room is about 20 x 30 with a high ceiling. I have the Thiels about 12 feet apart and sit in an equilateral triangle to them. Even the salesman today agreed that my budget and needs probably don't justify $3000 for the Thiel SS1.

I'm thinking I will upgrade the CDP down the line (when the tooth fairy brings me more funds), but finding a sub that will work well with my existing system may get me back to the immediate goal of enjoying music instead of worrying about equipment. Any experience of adding a sub with these speakers? Need I be wary of crossover problems or boominess with less expensive subs?

So, thanks again. I'm learning.

This Onkyo CDP--it's a garden variety mass-market CDP like you'd get at Circuit City? If so, it may not be that your system needs more "warmth" as much as it needs to get rid of harsh or brittle "bad" digital sound. A used Cary 303-200 would do that for maybe $1200. Or a used Meridian 506 for maybe half that.

The bass is probably a separate issue. But if you listen mainly to CD's, & you have a mediocre CDP, "more bass" may not increase your satisfaction that much.

I'd say focus on a good CDP first, then maybe a good equipment rack. A used REL Strata III sub for maybe $900 might be a good idea later.

"My room is about 20 x 30 with a high ceiling."

Aha! The good news is, your problem is identified. The bad news: upgrading your CDP isn't going take care of it. But no wonder you're here asking about ways to improve the sound.

Actually, the problem isn't your room -- that must be a great room. (Literally!) And it isn't the speakers, those are very good speakers. In fact, I'm not going to be so simplistic as to say the problem was the combination of the two, even though that's true.

The real problem lies (and I use that word advisedly) with the salesman who sold you that gear for that room. Either he neglected to ask the right questions that would have told him your needs, or he knew what he was getting you into, but chose instead to make an easier sale by catering to your stated budget and/or desire for compact gear (and, most likely, whatever brands/models you walked into the store positively-disposed toward from reviews and advertising). Either way he didn't earn his commission -- more like he saw you coming from jump street and pilfered it.

Anyway, this is where you are now: the 1.6's absolutely require a subwoofer to give anything like realistic response in your room. Which is not to say that adding one will cure everything you're hoing for, or that spending the same money (1.6's + sub) on a different pair of speakers (and not Thiels, fine as they are, or not new ones anyway) might not have been a better buy. But it's just the laws of physics which dictate that a pair of 6" woofer/mids -- even excellent ones with 3" voice-coils -- operating in cabinets with probably around 1.5 cubic feet of volume won't be adequate to drive circa 5,400-6,000 cubic feet of listening space (assuming a mere 9'-10' ceiling height, since you didn't specify other than to say "high") as the frequency descends.

And unlike some other small and small-woofered floorstanders or monitors, the 1.6, being a Thiel, doesn't have a shelved-down tweeter and a mid-bass hump to distract you from that reality (although to me the tweeter in the 1.6 doesn't sound quite as extended or detailed as those found in more costly Thiels, perhaps a wise and deliberate choice for this model). These are speakers that can sound great -- albeit still not with big balls in the low bass -- in rooms up to around 1,750 cubic ft. or so (example at the larger end of that scale: 12' x 18' x 8'). You can see the imperative -- since your room is at least 3X that volume, you should be having at least 3X the speaker in it.

Or use a subwoofer. I've actually auditioned the 1.6's in a room not far from the size of yours (in other words too big for the speakers), with and without a sub, and adding the sub can really help a lot. The one I heard them with was a smaller REL, but I'm not sure which model.

Steveaudio is probably right on target with this recommendation, for the reason that REL subs are designed to work strictly in "augmentation" mode, meaning they don't cross-over to the main speakers but simply add their LF response to them. The downside to this strategy is that it doesn't increase the volume level your small speakers can comfortably play at in a large room, so if you like to listen loud the 1.6's may still limit you in this area. The upside is that by augmenting rather than dividing the LF region between the sub and the mains, it will be much less difficult to get an acceptable transition between the two, because in your situation the 1.6's will need reinforcement in more than just the bottom 2 octaves.

By running a sub like an REL, which overlaps the mains through the mid-bass and *subtly* continues into the upper bass/lower midrange, dependent on how you set the contols and subject to adjustment with different recordings, you'll be able to add not just extension but also some of the warmer tonal balance that you are looking for. This won't be without some compromises -- for instance, it would easy to mess up stuff like male vocals or acoustic piano this way if abused, and certain aspects of reproduction will probably be a bit less natural no matter how judiciously the sub is adjusted because of how much you'll be asking it to do in this case -- but the advantages will almost certainly outweigh the disadvantages by a useful margin if done right. The only other caveat I can see is that a sub with a remote control might be most welcome in your situation, but I'm not sure which companies offer that. (Again, I think the Thiel sub would probably be outstanding for you, but don't think it makes as much sense in your situation unless you were upgrading the speakers -- to bigger Thiels in specific -- as well, though you could always take the incremental approach.)

However, I will disagree with Steveaudio about priorities. To me -- and I say this as a Thiel owner, who has gone from mass-market to mid-fi to high-end digital in my time with them -- you're probably better off getting the sub first if you're going to keep these speakers and continue using them in this room. I don't have any experience with your particular CDP, but most of the mass-market players from the past 15 years that I have heard tend to err on the 'warmer' side in terms of overall tonal balance, even if their treble presentation is not refined in and of itself, and their low bass may lack extension, control and dynamics.

In other words, when you do upgrade your Onkyo, don't be too surprised if you find out that it wasn't significantly thinning-out the balance, as much as perhaps doing things like flattening the soundstage, diminishing tonal and dynamic contrasts, glossing over fine detail, lacking extension at the frequency extremes, and giving a less defined, more amorphous presentation. And I'd say to save gear racks for last, if at all, since it sounds like you've got your stuff on a stable base, and besides which that whole topic is small potatoes compared to what your main necessity is at the moment. But my take is that you won't enjoy a new CDP nearly as much until you address the subwoofer first.

One more thing: I suspect you still may need to play around with set-up, sub or no sub. With the speakers 12' away and 12' apart, I imagine they're on the 20' (short) wall, firing down the 30' length of the room, and probably at least somewhat angled-in toward your ears? And that you don't have any acoustic surface treatments or stand-up damping devices? Please let us know about this, as well as your ceiling (height and construction), and how damped the room is in general (rugs? wall hangings? lots of furniture? or not -- lots of windows? much bare floor? concrete or brick anywhere?), and how far away from the wall your speakers are -- maybe further tuning is in order.

Wow, if only I had you guys for advice in December! Unfortunately, I didn't know about Audiogon then. To sum up, I talked to four different sales reps at three high-end audioshops and remarkably none asked about the size of the room -- they asked what my budget was and then showed me what they sold: B&W, Thiel, Martin Logans and one other type I've forgotten. I chose the Thiels because in the showroom with some of my favorite CDs, they sounded the best. I bought the Onkyo at a high-end audio shop 10 years ago, so it is not quite Circuit City breeding.

To my wife's consternation, I immediately upgraded from a smallish NAD receiver and bought the Classe (enter Audiogon) to get more power and current to drive the 1.6s. Actually the speakers are positioned on each side of a brick fireplace, three feet out from back wall and toed in a bit. So they fire across a 20 foot distance at one end of the room. As Zaikesman surmised, it is a "greatroom," and the long side actually opens to a dining room/kitchen. The ceiling is about 12 feet high with beams and exposed wood, plus a hardwood floow with an area rug. There are large windows on two sides of the listening area. I just bought floor length cellular blinds for the glass doors on one side to soften the sound reflections. Furniture rings the walls, with no obstructions between me and the speakers. I have played a lot with speaker positioning, starting with eight feet apart and gradually moving them out. The room is so large that they sound best at 12 feet to my ears.

In reviewing past subwoofer threads last night it looked like a REL Strata-3 would be a good option, but I couldn't find one for sale on Audiogon or anywhere else in the US. I should probably begin a new thread in the speakers forum to ask for experience of the Thiel 1.6 with the REL, Velodyne, and any other subs that cost less than the Thiel SS1. If money were no object (I wish), the SS1 would be at the top of my list. I really can't afford to sell what I have at a loss and start all over, particularly if the addition of a sub will solve my problem. Thanks again to all.

Thanks for the room description. Incredible, ain't it, that at three different shops no one asked about this. Along with a speaker's intrinsic response, the speaker/room interaction is really the most sonically determinative aspect of the entire system (any system).

The window treatment is a good idea, and it could allow you to aim the speakers a little more straight ahead, which would also reduce the perceived treble, though perhaps at the cost of some imaging precision. It might help to do something to damp or break up the reflection from the wall behind your chair as well. Unfortunately though, in addition to reflecting treble, windows leak bass, which the blinds won't affect (the fireplace might do so as well). It's probably good that you're set up firing across the short dimension of the room, which I was going to suggest if you weren't. I hope the area rug lies between you and the speakers. Having a wide placement separation between Thiels is not uncommon. Your listening distance is about the max recommended, but that's appropriate to your room size. Having the speakers 3 ft. away from the front wall is pretty standard, though moving them a little closer to the wall could increase the perceived lower frequency balance a bit.

But basically it sounds like you're working with what you've got, and the necessary evil (just kidding) of getting a sub is the next step, unless you were to change speakers (and even then you might still want a sub in this situation). It's no mystery to me that you preferred the sound of the Thiels in the store. The 1.6's aren't very demanding of power, though your room is, but I'm sure they appreciated the upgrade in amplification quality. You might try getting the outrigger stands if you don't already have them, as they could help slightly with the bass by increasing the footprint stability of the cabinets and hence LF wavelaunch. Best of luck with blending in a subwoofer and soliciting more advice on a new thread (lots of folks around here know more about subs than me :-), and let us know what happens, and when you get that CDP too.