frequency range for instrument vs speaker

06-21-12: Onhwy61

You can't count on many speakers to make meaningful bass below 50 Hz.

Way too broad a generalization.

Really? I've been in audio for 43 years and worked in retail for awhile. I've listened to countless speakers and read countless speaker reviews that include response curves. In most ported stand-mounted speakers, there is a 5-10 dB hump around 80-100 Hz that drops off rapidly below that. If you reference the bass response to 1000 Hz, it's often down 10-15 dB at 50 Hz. Naturally, the bass response on floorstanders will be better, but for the small footprint towers, not really by that much. Mostly it buys better sensitivity.

Only when you get into the larger and waaay more expensive floorstanders (and bigger stand-mounts like the stand-mounted TAD do you get serious bass below 50 Hz, and that select group IS NOT most speakers. Most speakers include all the junk that passes for hi-fi and the fact that mini-monitors far outnumber floorstanders.

(JohnnyB53)
I'd say just about *any* loudspeaker would benefit from the right pair of subs properly blended.

(Onhwy61)
Benefit to a bass obsessed audiophile - yes. Required or needed for music reproduction - no.

Bass obsession has nothing to do with it. If the subs are properly blended, they won't particularly excite the bass-obsessed. What they *will* do is provide a more linear extension through the musical frequencies to energize the listening area uniformly--more like a live concert--and reproduce very low frequency resonances of the original recording venue. In a symphonic concert hall this spectrum has a profound effect on the crackling excitement of in-room energy, even before the conductor raises his baton. This audible room energy separates listening to live orchestral music from what most people can listen to at home--unless they have sub(s) that go to 20 Hz or below.

If you look around, you'll find reviews of powerful subs with sub-20Hz response that add soundstage and room acoustics to recordings of solo guitar--which by itself reaches only down to 80 Hz.

Hmmm.. I looked into undertone a bit as well as phantom tone etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undertone_series

It seems that undertone is rather rare unlike overtone which is all over the place. If the article is correct, only wind and string instrument can create undertone.

Piano can create tone lower than fundamental of notes struck through sympathetic vibration of lower strings.

Ecruz, I agree with you. I had similar experience with sub and perceiveds something similar so there is definitely something going on in the sub 40Hz area.

Just as a note, it's a common recording engineer technique to use a high pass filter when tracking or mixing.

To Johnnyb53:

If you limit the audiophile world to only stand mounted speakers, then I would agree that there is not robust performance below 50Hz. But that's not what you originally said, nor is it an accurate description of what many audiophiles have. When I look at other members virtual system I see a majority of full range, floorstanding loudspeakers.

Everything you say about adding a subwoofer is true, but the benefit you describe is audiophile, not musically relevant.

I tend to agree that below 30Hz is not really musically relavant. Sure, it adds ambience in some cases. By the low 20s it is more felt than heard. It is an awesome experience to hear a large pipe organ in a large cathedral. I have never heard that reproduced electronically 100%. Perhaps it would take a room nearly as big as a cathedral to do it. The 16ft pedal on the pipe organ just makes a pressure and creates a certain mood and is always a relief when that low frequency sound ends. I think that is part of the mood too. I think some experiences like being in front of a large pipe organ need to be experienced first hand.

****If the article is correct, only wind and string instrument can create undertone. ****

Yes, and we all know how authoritative Wikepedia is. And no, not just those instruments can create undertones.

The Wikepedia article is (as usual) very incomplete. The production of undertones does not require special playing techniques. They can (and are) be produced by the acoustic interactions of two or more fundamentals. In the example that I described, no special techniques were
needed nor used. Undertones occur naturally as part of the harmonic texture of music. They add timbral complexity to music.

****I tend to agree that below 30Hz is not really musically relavant. ****

Really?

****Sure, it adds ambience in some cases. By the low 20s it is more felt than heard. It is an awesome experience to hear a large pipe organ in a large cathedral. I have never heard that reproduced electronically 100%.
Perhaps it would take a room nearly as big as a cathedral to do it. The 16ft pedal on the pipe organ just makes a pressure and creates a certain mood and is always a relief when that low frequency sound ends. I think that is part of the mood too. I think some experiences like being in front of a large pipe organ need to be experienced first hand.****

Sounds like musical relevance to me. Below 30hz reproduction may not be absolutely necessary, but it is clearly relevant and adds a great deal.