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Next best exponential DAC quality level?

I recently did a shoot out of three DACs using my Hint6 + routing each of the other DACs to analog input on the Hint6:

(1) Hint6: ESS Sabre32 -- Integrated 

(2) SMSL M500: ES9038PRO D/A   ~$400 

(3) Khadas ToneBoard(v1): ESS ES9038Q2M - ~$99

I played the same song passages on Amazon Music and was able to cycle through each Hint6 input corresponding to each DAC.

The result?  Very small difference in terms of rendering.  Maybe a more open sound stage with better overall balance using the Hint6 DAC.  The Khadas was more bass / midrange pronounced w/ a more narrow soundstage.  However, I wouldn't suggest that any were head-and-shoulders "better" over the others.  In fact, they were all pretty decent with only small nuances (certainly not worth the price differences.   

I decided to keep the Khadas for my small headphone listening area. 

But it got me thinking - how much would one have to spend to realize an exponential difference in quality?  Is the Khadas that good, or is DAC technology differences more nuanced than I originally thought (meaning, we're paying 10x for only 5% better).  

 

128x128martinman
cindyment's avatar
cindyment
351 posts
 

Those who don’t use tubes assume a tube DAC, or tubes in general, are always syrupy and full of distortion. Topology and tube selection matter; it’s very possible for a Dac using tubes to sound detailed and neutral. I’ve heard some SS Dacs that have a warm presentation, not reproducing music realistically.

What should be compared is sound signature of a Delta Sigma Dac vs a multibit or ladder Dac. Not tubes vs SS.

 

You can make a SS DAC that has distortion making it sound warm or whatever you want. While not impossible, it is impractical to make a tube output DAC with distortion levels anywhere near the best SS DACs. Most tube DACs are inherently going to a "sound", so this is not necessarily in their best interest from a marketing standpoint. If you make a tube DAC you want to sound different.

cindyment's avatar
cindyment
351 posts
 

What should be compared is sound signature of a Delta Sigma Dac vs a multibit or ladder Dac.

Once you reach a particular level of accurate reproduction and you use the same reconstruction/analog filters, there is no sound signature for Delta-Sigma, multi-bit or ladder DACs. Differences in reconstruction filters/analog filters that take the result away from an ideal response will have more difference.

There isn’t a person in all of this site (or any other site) that could tell the architecture of the DAC if designed to be accurate just from listening.

soix
8,968 posts
 

 That’s like saying once amps reach a certain point there’s no difference.

Once they do, there isn't. 

@djones51 — you’re absolutely delusional.  ASR is calling. 

cindyment's avatar
cindyment
351 posts
 

 That’s like saying once amps reach a certain point there’s no difference.

Once they do, there isn't. 

@djones51 — you’re absolutely delusional.  ASR is calling.

 

Why this toxicity?  This is easy to show.  @djones51 is correct. That does not mean you can pop out one op amp in a circuit and just replace it with a "better" one. The circuit must match the op-amp for best performance.  Within the limits of their performance envelope, you would never be able to tell many op-amps aparts, even some relatively inexpensive ones.

So many love the old pre-digital recordings. Do you know how many cheap 5532 and 5534 op-amps were in the signal chain before you got that record?

 

 

arafiq's avatar
arafiq
1,599 posts
 

@phill55 My preference is in the following order ...

Luxman DA-06> Audio Mirror Tubador 3 > Node 2i

It's too early to comment on the differences between T+A and Luxman yet. 

One thing I did not mention earlier was that right around the time I bought the Luxman DAC, I went through a number of DACs in a 6 month period. Based on stellar reviews and great measurements, I bought the Topping D90. It seemed to do everything right ... on paper. Probably my least favorite DAC, despite it measuring better than many others. At first it impressed, but I just couldn't connect with my music emotionally. It never moved me. I would get bored after maybe 30 minutes of listening. 

Then a used Luxman DA-06 showed up in the used market and I decided to give it a shot. Now mind you, the DA-06 is at least a 6-7 year old design. Within the first 30 seconds, I knew it was a keeper. Sold the Topping within a week, no regrets. There's a reason DA-06 still commands $2k or more in the used market.

However, the best DAC that I have heard in my home is the one that is included in Audio Research GSi75 integrated amp. The level of finesse and balance on that DAC was outstanding. I ended up selling the GSi75 for other reasons but sill miss that DAC.

At the end of the day, it really depends on what one is seeking. If specs and measurements are the end all and be all for you, then more power to you. I see the usual suspects - the graph-readers, the 'everything sounds the same' crowd has raided this thread in full force. The rest of the discussion will only go one way now. No further comments from me. Good luck!

 

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