''Óriginal parts'', ''identity '' and ''retip'' conundrum


The ''identity enigma'' is easy to explain with ''ownership''. Not everyone is familiar with logic or philosophy but everyone owns something or other.

Ownership assume ''one to one relation'' between an person (legal

bodies included) and one object of ownership. Think of question how

you can prove to own some object. You can also think about question

how to prove to be owner of, say an part of your stolen car.

What the ''force'' of the expression ''original'' is , is an enigma.

However Americans are typical example of   people who are very

fond of ''original parts'' and willing to pay huge amount of money

for the ''precious'' (grin). By the so called ''retips'' the assumption

is also ''original'' versus ''not original parts''. This means that 

every manufacturer as well ''retiper'' uses his own styli and or

cantilevers. The fact however is that they all buy those ''parts''

by either by Namiki or Ogura. So, logicaly speaking, the origin

of those ''parts'' are either Namiki or Ogura. Is gluing an cantilever/

stylus combo in the ''joint pipe'' rocket science?

128x128nandric

A Cartridge becomes unique by the selection of materials used for the assembly.

In the material selection there many be a common part used as a Cantilever>Stylus, that is sourced from a dependable Producer in the Supply Chain for the procurement of the product.

As I stated the choices when using the Third Party 'retiper' service are not limited to only Two Brands Products, there are further options to be considered.

It is not for me to say whether considering such a option for Cartridge is correct/incorrect.

My own experience has been from choosing a not so commonly offered material such as Beryllium, where reliance of a assessment of the new parts in use,          has been drawn from a personal subjective evaluation and a groups subjective evaluation, is that this method has been very well received and there is a noticeable improvement over a Original Spec' Cartridge. In my case the veer away from maintaining original parts has been very rewarding.

The OP's statement below appears to suggest that when a Third Party 'retiper' service is used, the options on choices are limited to the the use of Two Brands Products only , as seen in the underscored section below.

My experience and point being made is that this is not the case when discussing options on a Service from a Third Party ' retiper', the options are not going to be limited to this. Albeit that it does require the need to commence in a dialogue with a technician to discover the options that can be offered. 

The second most important concern for myself, is whether a Service has the Experience and Skill Set to produce the optimized product as part of the process being undertaken.

My experience as a 'layman only' of investigating a variety of Cartridge Rebuilds,     if the information viewed is bona fide, has shown Cartridges after short usage and needing to undergo a repair, that are in a condition that does not suggest Quality Control was a paramount concern when the Cartridge was produced.          These observations do not endear one, to the idea of entrusting manufacturers that have a good proportion of the Market Place.   

My money goes in the direction where I feel it is to be best served.

By the so called ''retips'' the assumption

is also ''original'' versus ''not original parts''. This means that 

every manufacturer as well ''retiper'' uses his own styli and or

cantilevers. The fact however is that they all buy those ''parts''

by either by Namiki or Ogura. So, logicaly speaking, the origin

of those ''parts'' are either Namiki or Ogura. 

 

Dear dover,  Not everyone can move to New Zeeland to enjoy clean

air, nature , holy water and exceptional wines. You mentioned ''cost''

but without numbers. So we have no idea what your ''refreshments''

cost. For ''us'' the commons 500 euro for an RETIP with cantilever+

stylus is ''mucho dollares''. For this kind of money one can get an decent

MM as Raul has shown. But you are not specific about parts and

their IDENTITI while logic state : no identity without entity. Aka the

''classical objects''. One can also state that MC consist of different  parts

which need to be put together.  Each of those parts assumes its own

identity. Say ''the moving parts'' consist of ''joint pipe'' (aka aluminum tube)

in which front side cantilever stylus combo is glued and on its back side

coils and tension wire are fastened . Those are moving parts while

tension wire connects those moving parts with generator which does

not move. Now does Dynavector produce its own styli + cantilevers

or are those ''simply'' bought by Namiki or Ogura? Mentioning ''micro

ridge'' means Namiki stylus. Does Dynavector ''glue'' those with very

little glue in their own cantilevers? If so what is the difference ''against'' 

common retiper? The amount of glue? I thought about this young

man who was very careful to inform the parents of his girl friend:

''your daughter is little bit  pregnant''. 

 

pinda, the so called ''free market'' exist only in economic books. Take

for example Holland the ''champion of free market''. Each item that

cross the border means 12% import duty + 21% VAT. Beryllum cantilevers

are not available in ordinary sense. Only those retipers who have them

in stock can provide them. If those are outside of E.Union ... You get

the picture. The so called ''free choice'' in a myth. ''Possible choices''

assume ''impossible kind''. So your ''inductive reasoning'' aka from your

individual situation to general statement will not do. The same apply

for our beloved dover. One can much better formulate some hypothetical

statement which we can see as ''assertion'' from which deductions

can be made. Then reason in ''usual logic'': if the assertions are not

true then deduced statements are also not true.

Some cartridges have no manufacturer alive anymore, and styli are nowhere to be found.  The Micro Acoustics 3002 that I have is just such a cartridge. Maintaining all original parts is not an option. 

Mine has a snapped beryllium cantilever. 

So it will go to a retipper. He can fuse on a boron rod to the beryllium rod stump, or an aluminum alloy, or sapphire, or zirconium, titanium, pretty much my choice, but not beryllium unless I have a donor cantilever. Tips? Pretty much the only limiting factor is price. Boron/MicroRidge would be the closest to original. 
 

My choices are to wait forever for a stylus to come along, or have it repaired/retipped. 

This stuff about only having the manufacturer do a repair is a bunch of bull hockey. Often, the reputable hand craftsmanship of a retipper can get tolerances better than the factories have the time for. 
 

 

@nandric , having cantilevers made covers a fairly wide range of possible options. At the simplest, Namiki / Ogura will deliver an off-the-shelf catalog design cantilever of the kinds that are published in their documentation or websites. Altering the stylus angle to match the cartridge's cantilever rake angle so that the final SRA will be around 90º can also be specified (Namiki / Ogura's catalog specs assume a standard cantilever rake angle of 20º). Everyone who buys from Namiki / Ogura has access to this level of cantilever build.

But Namiki / Ogura also accommodate various degrees of customization.
Entry level of custom assemblies will involve the cartridge manufacturer delivering a bespoke, detailed design that may use original, non-catalog shapes and dimensions, but the materials will be standard Namiki / Ogura fare. Nonetheless, since the design work will have been done by the client (cartridge manufacturer, retipping company etc.), Namiki / Ogura do not have the right to provide such cantilevers to other parties unless there is express written permission by the designer or estate inheritor (in the case of designers who have passed away).

One such example is the Lyra-designed stylus that we have Ogura make for us. Although this stylus has non-proprietary aspects like 3um x 70um contact radii, we also designed in additional, less obvious features to help performance, therefore Ogura do not have the right to deliver the Lyra stylus to other clients. If Ogura wishes to do so, they can make their own 3um x 70um stylus and deliver it to their other clients (Robert Torlai in Italy claims to be using an Ogura-made 3um x 70um stylus), but not the Lyra design.

Second level of custom cantilevers is where the client specifies materials or methods outside of Namiki / Ogura standard choices, but are common or well-known enough that Namiki / Ogura are able to procure said materials / methods on their own, without requiring that these be provided by the client. This may include alloys, adhesives, suspension wires, coil formers, non-contact machining, heat treatments, cryogenics etc.
Nothing prevents Namiki / Ogura from using such materials or methods in the cantilevers of other clients, but generally speaking, unless the client's engineering drawings include clear requests for specific materials or methods, what will be used are the more standard choices.

Similar to the above, there may be places in the design where Namiki / Ogura would normally join one part to another with adhesives, however the client can alternatively specify crimps, press-fits, interference joints, welds, brazes etc. Again, the client's engineering drawings should include clear requests for specific joining methods, otherwise Namiki / Ogura's standard methods will be applied.

Third level of custom cantilevers is where Namiki / Ogura do not have direct access to the materials specified by the client, and depend on the client to provide the materials. One example would be Ceralloy, which was the very first cantilever material that we used in production. This was a whisker-reinforced alloy that we had formulated and made, and we delivered the ingots to Ogura so that they could shape the individual cantilevers and fit them to the rest of the parts. (As an aside, some of Highphonic's A-series cartridges used a related material. Their formulation was somewhat different from ours, but it was the same class of whisker-reinforced alloys.)
Likewise for the diamond-coated boron cantilevers of the Etna and Atlas; Diamond-coating of boron is outside of Ogura's capabilities, therefore Lyra delivers these to Ogura, who does the final shaping and assembly.

A similar situation applies to Lyra's chemically purified iron coil formers, MySonic's SH-μX coil formers, Satin's coreless spiral coils, and undoubtedly the micro-coils used in JVC's MC-L1 / L10 / L1000, with the client providing the materials (sometimes the completed part), which Namiki / Ogura build into the rest of the cantilever.

Fourth level of custom cantilevers is where the client specifies unique parts that Namiki / Ogura are unable to or cannot figure out how to make on their own. The one-piece diamond cantilever used in Sony's XL-88D (and derivatives) are an obvious example. In such cases, the client will provide know-how and advice, guide Namiki / Ogura to suitable fabrication equipment, and otherwise collaborate with Namiki / Ogura so that the parts can be made successfully.
Sometimes, even with the client's assistance, Namiki / Ogura aren't able to make the part exactly according to spec, or tolerances / yield may be beyond the client's wishes. In such cases, the client either has to give up on the part, or be willing to accept what Namiki / Ogura are able to deliver.

There are other categories, but those above are the major ones.

hope this helps, jonathan

PS. Regarding the joint-pipes which are the most common means by which replacement / alternative cantilevers are fitted, they are not present in all cartridge designs. For example, Takeda-san of Miyabi is one well-known designer who disliked the mechanical filtering effect of adhesive joints, therefore a number of his models (and the Fuugas) eschewed joint pipes in favor of seamless metal alloy cantilevers, even at the cost of higher effective mass. Similar thinking as on Sony's XL-88D, but expressed in a different way.

PPS. These days some online vendors selling used cartridges do not bother indicating if a cartridge is in original condition or has been retipped by someone else. We were recently returned a Lyra by way of WAM Engineering, in which we were taken to task for inadequate stylus alignment. The cartridge should have had an Ogura-made cantilever; it had a Namiki instead. The owner had purchased the cartridge second-hand, unaware that it was a retip.
And on our side, it was not a pleasant experience to be blamed for someone else's failings.

PPPS. @mijostyn , in addition to cantilever / stylus block alignment issues, it is also possible for the stylus' groove contact surfaces to be twisted or misaligned within the diamond block. In such cases concentrating on the alignment of the diamond block to the cantilever will not help very much.