Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music


 

I've updated my blog post with more data, more analysis and the conclusion that in my particular case I do not need a subwoofer.  I encourage everyone who is on the fence about adding a subwoofer or not to read and comment.  I think that either way you'll be able to make more informed buying and configuration choices.

Everyone's situation is different but I hope the post helps you get to the right conclusions.

 

erik_squires

I've been following this thread and have decided to weigh in and I acknowledge that all of my comments are simply my observations and opinions. I am not as interested or competent in the technical aspects of audio as @erik_squires, @millercarbon and others who frequently post. I am, however, an avid music listener and my wife and I both play musical instruments and frequently attend classical and jazz concerts. Our audio system is the vehicle for our music listening.

1. I agree with @rauliruegas that for some listeners adding one or more subs that generate significant distortion may be worse than not having a sub. I say "for some listeners" because if someone is adding one or more subs in an attempt to create the sound of a live rock concert, adding subs that generate distortion is overwhelmed by the distortion already in the music, created by the electronics of the performing artists - think Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, The Who, etc. Having subs that produce generous amounts of bass will help get one closer to the high volumes and bass of such groups.

2. I also agree with another contributor who noted that adding one or more subs may be less important for those who listen to acoustic music - classical and jazz, folk, etc. While much classical and most jazz do have significant amounts of bass, the acoustic bass is typically part of a large orchestra in classical and is typically part of a rhythm section in jazz. For such music, and particularly for chamber music, folk and some bluegrass, the bass frequencies are a less significant part of the overall performance than in rock music, although much symphonic music has a significant amount of percussion and there are organ pieces that will challenge the best audio systems.

3. I will not disagree with the benefits of a well integrated subs or subs. They can improve not only the bass response of an audio system, but also improve the soundstage and the response of the drivers in the main speakers. This leads to another point.

4. What has not been mentioned in the prior posts is the importance of having sufficient and high quality amplification for the main speakers of a system. To provide low distortion and lifelike transient response in something like a large symphonic work, the amplifier(s) need to match the requirements of the speakers. As an example, our primary speakers are a pair of Aerial Acoustics Model 8b's. These are modestly sized, three-way floor standing speakers that are relatively inefficient (86 dB sensitivity), with published frequency response of 28 - 22k Hz +/- 2 dB. They are 4 ohm speakers that drop to almost 2 ohms impedance at certain frequencies, a challenge for most amps. Fortunately, our then dealer paired them with a Proceed (Levinson design) HPA-2 amp with specs of 250 w/ch at 8 ohms, 500 w/ch at 4 ohms. The amps have never clipped that I could hear in the years we've owned them and provide high current that drives the 10.7" woofers in the speakers with aplomb. I mention all this because a few years ago I auditioned in home a high-end Luxman piece as a possible replacement for our amp. The Luxman was rated at 150 watts/ch at 8 ohms so I figured we were fine. Wrong - the clipping was very audible and obvious at high volume transients while listening to a symphony. If I had our M&K sub integrated into our two-channel system the Luxman amp would have been splendid for at lower volumes it produced lovely, neutral and highly detailed sound.

5. I have benefited from tips provided by @millercarbon in several of his posts and in direct communications with him. His recommendations for acoustic treatments noticeably improved the music's clarity and soundstage in our listening room. I, however, share the view that while subs can be very helpful, they are not necessarily the end all. And the DBA, multi-sub approach advocated by @millercarbon is not feasible in many multi-purpose listening rooms even if one uses wireless subs. I cannot dispute the DBA may sound "better" whatever that means, but for us integrating even one M&K sub into our system was a challenge and I don't want to have to adjust the bass volume as different albums are played. I want to spend my time listening to the music. So our sub is used for home theater but not for music and we are content with the reproduction provided by our speakers and amp with both analog and digital sources.

When I set up a pair of Velodyne HGS-15s to augment KEF Reference 1s, I ran the usual sweeps using the SMS-1 bass manager and was surprised in-room response of the KEFs was pretty flat to 30 Hz, then dropped sharply. So I low-passed at 45 Hz, and it sounded pretty good. I decided to try 80 Hz, and that transformed the listening experience, big detailed soundstage with no awareness of the subs. Marchand provides balanced passive high-pass at 80 Hz -- Charley Hanson had admonished me not to put active high-pass between an Ayre preamp and amp.

...agree with the positive aspects of DBA, but in need of a proper space to make matters work....an integrated single sub works, but always needs a tweak to seem apropos to the program....

Integration, whether in audio or cultures, always seems an 'iffy issue'...imh...

And the room rules when it comes to augmenting bass, ignored at peril.....

*sigh*  So many details, so little time.... :)

 

Did the " 'bot gate " ask "Will I dream?"

One of the many beautiful aspects of DBA is more subs beats bigger subs every time. The idea of "proper space" for example. If you understand the concept then you know your four subs don't have to be 12" or even 10" they can be 8" or even 6". They don't have to be boxes either they can be tubes. Hsu Research used to make subs that were only about 8" diameter by 30" long and tuned to 20Hz. "Proper space" then is what you already have behind every sofa, under or behind all kinds of furniture, and at the corner of every room. 

"Integration" with a DBA comes down to throwing them down, setting xo and level, and enjoy. Really, more people should try it to appreciate just how painless easy and effective it is. 

@sameyers1 Interesting advice. Chuck really enjoys taking Erik and many others to task for recommending acoustic treatments, maybe you just haven’t read enough of his posts…yet. You must be aware of what he thinks of Levinson gear…Your post was clear, lucid and not rude to the OP. Your post is also cognizant that maybe not everyone wants a forest of subwoofers and wire strung across the back fourty…

No doubt you understand that classical symphonic bass is not mono. Maybe below 100 ish hz it is..but you probably also understand the rich vibrant and loud harmonics of a scaling standup bass…way above 100 hz. A swarm is but one answer, with some texture , imaging and harmonic downsides. Flat frequency response is an upside. I know a certain Strad owner with great high passed main speakers with integral subs with 11 bands of analog EQ below 120 hz. No swarm desired or needed. High passing the main amp for magic midrange is crucial. I complimented your ability to detect clipping in your great system.

@lemonhaze is correct, RT60 is an excellent tool for working the room. Some of us have achieved near perfect control room RT60 numbers using modern measurement tools, a variety of room treatments , natural furnishings AND listening . We bring in peers to help. Fun.

Finally rock is not a good audiophile sub test, a Fender Precision or Kick drum just don’t go very low, so it’s more about mid bass slam and freeing up the mains and main amp to reproduce those IMD free as @rauliruegas so astutely noted.

:-) enjoy the music

Jim