@ieales , @atmasphere is absolutely correct. Debating opinion and supposition with facts presented by one of the foremost authorities on the subject is rather futile. You may wear down his willingness to contribute to educating others on the subject but you won't change the facts. @atmasphere is universally respected by amplifier designers, be they solid state or tube gear designers, who are universally respected.
Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...
I'm old enough to remember Julian Hersch from Audio magazine and his very unscientific view that all amplifiers sounded the same once they met a certain threshold. Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same.
I call these views unscientific as some one with a little bit of an engineering background as well as data science and epidemiology. I find both of these approaches limited, both in technology used and applied and by stretching the claims for measurements beyond their intention, design and proof of meaning.
Without getting too much into that, I have a very pragmatic point of view. Listen to the following three amplifier brands:
- Pass Labs
- Luxman
- Ayre
If you can't hear a difference, buy the cheapest amplifier you can. You'll be just as happy. However, if you can, you need to evaluate the value of the pleasure of the gear next to your pocket book and buy accordingly. I don't think the claim that some gear is pure audio jewelry, like a fancy watch which doesn't tell better time but looks pretty. I get that, and I've heard that. However, rather than try to use a method from Socrates to debate an issue to the exact wrong conclusion, listen for yourself.
If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself. Doing this leaves you with a very very different perspective than those who haven't. You'll also, in both cases, learn about yourself. Are you someone who can't hear a difference? Are you some one who can? What if you are some one who can hear a difference and doesn't care? That's fine. Be true to yourself, but I find very little on earth less worthwhile than having arguments about measurements vs. sound quality and value.
To your own self and your own ears be true. And if that leads you to a crystal radio and piezo ear piece so be it. In my own system, and with my own speakers I've reached these conclusions for myself and I have very little concern for those who want to argue against my experiences and choices.
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It gets measured alright. But I think I see what the confusion is. An SPL meter is only useful if the speaker is making sound, whereas we've been talking about measured output power. The two are not the same, owing to tube amps having a slightly higher output impedance in most cases- that will cause minor FR errors. My prior statement in this regard is correct:
I remember that. He failed too; a 35dB match was all he could get.
If one amp was making more higher ordered harmonics, it likely would have sounded louder. An SPL meter gets to the bottom of that pretty quickly. Don't conflate the spec sheets with the measurements. Spec sheets are IMO the Emperor's New Clothes. Measurements are not.
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"The Final Achievement
¿Que? Loudness? Never mentioned it. We were matching level w SPL meter @ 1Khz and Pink Noise and also measuring amplifier voltage output w AC voltmeter. Some amplifiers were sonically very close and some not. Some better with one speaker and others with another. In the end, we came to the conclusion that synergy exists and it's not predictable. Spec sheets report measurements, or at least some do. 😉 |
if the voltage is within, say 10%, then the SPL will be also be very close.
BS - it is measured ad naseum, and produces nausea in people that do not understand it.
BS - most people probably max out at 0.5 to 1 dB difference. And I further disagree as I have the NIOSH app on my iPad as many low distortion speakers do not sound like they have a lot of SPL happening. However on my wife’s old system it sounds loud at 65dB.
I trust Bob Carver about as much as a preacher.
Other the other hand I have heard only good things about Ralph, and his writing indicates that he is learned in the subject and is rationally presented.
Lastly the use of the word “Synergy” has a magical tone to it, that to me is sort of like a synergy of faults summing to zero. (IMO) It is easier to build systems were output impedances are low, input impedances are high, the FR and PR is flat… than spicing up bright and warm gear like a sweet-n-sour pork where things are starting out in major conflict. |
There is difference between any piece of gear and any other one generally and in most cases for many reasons...It is common place experience... Dont ask for a blind test please... 😁😊 There is also acoustic conditions which OFTEN make difference in gear minute one compared to room control... And if you want good S.Q. buy first and to begin with some good gear....It is not so difficult because electronic audio engineering is mature technology for many DECADES... 70 years ? or 60 ? or 50 ? We must ask atmasphere for that, he knows.... But nothing will rival acoustic control and treatment to optimize and put your well chosen gear ON HIS PEAK WORKING POTENTIAL... NOTHING.... Certainly not upgrading a good piece of gear already for an alleged "better" one because of publicity by reviewers... What we hear at the end is acoustically determined anyway ...A bad amplifier compared to a good one will not be changed by the room control in a good one for sure...but any good one will be TRANSFORMED in a miraculously good one... All basic good design of amplifier and speakers are the starting point not the destination... Acoustic is the key....Nothing else... i sell acoustic creativity not gear....
i concur with this post:
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