While amp circuits may lead to very similar outcomes there are vast differences in power supplies. And Ralphs argument on differential harmonics between Tubes and SS certainly concurs with what I hear
Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...
I'm old enough to remember Julian Hersch from Audio magazine and his very unscientific view that all amplifiers sounded the same once they met a certain threshold. Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same.
I call these views unscientific as some one with a little bit of an engineering background as well as data science and epidemiology. I find both of these approaches limited, both in technology used and applied and by stretching the claims for measurements beyond their intention, design and proof of meaning.
Without getting too much into that, I have a very pragmatic point of view. Listen to the following three amplifier brands:
- Pass Labs
- Luxman
- Ayre
If you can't hear a difference, buy the cheapest amplifier you can. You'll be just as happy. However, if you can, you need to evaluate the value of the pleasure of the gear next to your pocket book and buy accordingly. I don't think the claim that some gear is pure audio jewelry, like a fancy watch which doesn't tell better time but looks pretty. I get that, and I've heard that. However, rather than try to use a method from Socrates to debate an issue to the exact wrong conclusion, listen for yourself.
If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself. Doing this leaves you with a very very different perspective than those who haven't. You'll also, in both cases, learn about yourself. Are you someone who can't hear a difference? Are you some one who can? What if you are some one who can hear a difference and doesn't care? That's fine. Be true to yourself, but I find very little on earth less worthwhile than having arguments about measurements vs. sound quality and value.
To your own self and your own ears be true. And if that leads you to a crystal radio and piezo ear piece so be it. In my own system, and with my own speakers I've reached these conclusions for myself and I have very little concern for those who want to argue against my experiences and choices.
- ...
- 197 posts total
@holmz +1 My thoughts exactly. that Stereophile nonsense caused me to suspect Mr. Carver so many years ago; the latest debacle with an amplifier that can't make anywhere near full power sealed the deal IMO.
Its nice to think audio is a mature technology. But its no-where near as mature as people like to think. If it was, tubes would not still be around; solid state circuits would have replaced them and no looking back (as happens in any field where the new tech replaces the prior art). The problem has been that the semiconductors needed to really supplant tubes (meaning: to make a solid state amp that isn't harsh) didn't exist in the 1970s or 1980s. We had a proper understanding of control theory in that time, but oddly, didn't apply it to audio (probably because if that was actually a goal, no power amplifiers would have been produced 😁). So feedback networks for the most part have been poorly designed and we have several decades worth of solid state amps that come off harsh and bright, especially when you turn it up. IMO this is mostly because the gear was made to make money so the companies making it didn't care that it fell well short of the goal of sounding like real music. Sorry to sound curmudgeonly... This has been what has kept tube amplifiers in business the last 70 years since they do offer a way around this issue (they make enough lower ordered harmonics to mask the harshness of the higher orders they also make). But in more recent times semiconductors have advanced to the point where you can get rid of that pesky brightness/harshness for which solid state is known. IMO we've only just arrived near the top of the R&D sigmoid curve in audio in the last ten years or so. |
Thanks very much atmasphere for your knowledge... I was hoping your explanation to confirm my point... I could not explain all the details like you did... In a word there is tube amplifiers and some S.S. which were never bright or harsh, like my Sansui AU7700 and some new technology now for the last decade... My point is that there is now available many good different types of amplifiers... Yours for sure and some others... It is more easy to look for one and buy it now than to solve all acoustic problems for us... My point is acoustic is the key to optimize and put at their peak level ANY amplifiers working PERCEIVED EXPERIENCE in a room in a way that is astounding, not a minute upgrade... Thanks to you for your useful post...
|
No mention of calibrated microphone or calibration standard. Both are necessary.
Carver made the claim, the Doubting Thomases verified he did what he said he could.
AFAIR, I've only ever said nice things about Ralph and atmasphere. He's a smart guy and his products are very good.
Spot on. Many designers don't understand that the amplifier circuitry is a power supply regulator. If the PSU dynamic response is bad, then that will manifest itself in the output.
V-FETs. Sony and Yamaha made some gorgeous sounding amplifiers that cost a fortune. AND plenty of good ideas that advanced the SOTA. And there are plenty of audio products currently manufactured that make one shake one's head and wonder "What were they thinking?"
Harmonics, phase response, transient response, compression, dynamic noise spectra, damping factor, glowing sexy glass bottles, emotional involvement adjusting bias, tube rolling, ad infinitum...
If we are near the top, are we about to start a slide down in a short while as Handy suggests? From my perspective, apart from the bling factor which is lamentably far to prevalent, audio improvement proceeds apace. |
- 197 posts total