Limited soundstage between speakers

Sorry but out of phase cannot be coherent like the acoustic factor which is "listener envelopment"aka LEV...And nobody will put 7 headphones in a closet like i did because of out of phase effect in his room is not it ?...

Educate yourself in basic acoustic...I even post a doctoral thesis explaining it in a post above...

Most of the times my music is in a depth dimension in the axis back/front and my soundscape impression are like an headphone intimate listening but the sound is out ofmy head...

My room is dedicated and contains at least 100 Helmhotz resonators, and diffusers also... A grid of 12 cheap Shumann resonators, 3 types of ionizers, a passive material treatment also with a balance between absorption, reflection, and diffusion...

I use also a wood screen behind me with many acoustic resonators and diffusers using with it the back reflections and lateral one to create this headphone effect...

The sound fill my room OUTSIDE of the speakers plane ...

if you dont know anything about acoustic for sure you dont know how to create listener envelopment and you dont even know what is the Helmhotz method...

Then in your ignorance it is better to explain my soundscape by "out of phase" effects but anyone reading my description about my acoustic coherent soundstage and imaging and listener envelopment know immediately that distortion cannot create a coherent image for all albums with different audible acoustic cues; and out of phase effect even if they are in my room cannot ERASE my acoustic devices power by itself anyway....

 

 

If you dont understand something it does not means that my posts make no sense... It means you dont KNOW the power of acoustic in a speakers/room relation... You are not alone, most audiophile ignoring acoustic speak about their gear in a fetichist way, ignoring that we listen to the Systen/room not to the system ALONE and by itself....

If someone has never lived through an acoustic transformation it is unbelivable anyway....i spoke by experience and experiments....

 

Experiment you may try at NO COST : put a set of plumber tubes vertically in your room of different lenght, do nothing else, the change negative or positive will be evident... Then tune them like i described and transform them in an Helmholtz resonators or in a diffuser and you will begin to understand...This is a mechanical tuning of the room by Helmholtz method but this cannot replace passive material treatment no more than passive material treatment alone can replace Helmholtz mechanical method...Acoustic is more complex than " buy an upgrade and plug it in the wall " yes....But it is also more powerful than most uppgrade anyway and cannot be replace by an upgrade...Most people dont get it anyway ....

This is only a simple experiment , no cost at all...Some junk discarded plumber tubes of various size is better...After assessing for yourself  the negative or positive effect you will know and then the hard task will be fine tuning.... it takes only time and fun listening of music... Simple no ?

Acoustic at the end process alas! is a complex set of experiments yes, but it may cost NOTHING...I never bought any costly products.... Then have fun....It cost time and listening experiments yes to fine tune a system/room relation...but it is fun....

LIke me you will perhaps discover that upgrading your gear may be meaningless considering the ratio S.Q. / price ratio you already enjoy after acoustic tuning...

My best to you, apologizing for my rant, but that can be useful for someone here if not for you....

After all, how many people inform us all about acoustic power in audio thread with words enough powerful to ask for the attention necessary in this IMPORTANT audiophile underestimated matter ? Not many and those who speak about spoke about it with a too low voice to be understood in the general gear fetichism pervading audio thread...

 

+1 @newbee and @mahgister your system is wired out of phase if this is what you hear. Frankly, I don’t understand half your posts, and the other half I just flat out disagree with. You’re an odd duck dude.

+1 @mahgister.  Obviously you have spent many years with the time involved with the development of your sound room.  Unfortunately, while many of us would love to have a dedicated sound room, it is for the most part not a practical undertaking.  That leaves some of us with very challenging room environments, but I applaud your knowledge regarding your experiences and advice.  

tThen tune them like i described and transform them in an Helmholtz resonators or in a diffuser and you will begin to understand.

Uh, I doubt the recording engineers used Helmholtz resonators when they mixed the recording. Also, as a reviewer I got to hear many $500k+ systems in well-treated rooms, and in NONE of them did I hear 50% of the sound coming from outside the speakers unless the recording called for it, and 95% do not. If you’re hearing 50% of the sound coming from outside your speakers, you’re out of phase unless every other ultra high-end system I’ve heard is wrong. Or, maybe you just have a “magic system” that is mysteriously better than every system out there is wrong. My bet, you’ve constructed a room that radically diffuses the sound so you get width at the expense of center fill. You could get that much easier with some cheap Bose 901s. Again, you’re off on your own island and I don’t even understand you.

Well, I know it's possible to achieve what the OP has asked about, but it takes work and a recording that presents the required soundstage. I listen to large scale classical and quartets/quintets. If the recording is mic'd and engineered well I get to enjoy a wide and deep soundstage with a layered and focused image. The full orchestra extends beyond my speakers and each section of instruments is well defined. My all tube system plays a role in this presentation. Of course there are many recordings that don't extend beyond the speakers, but the soundstage extends from speaker to speaker with a focused image. BTW, in post #2 of this thread I stated that the OP needs to check if his system is in phase and are there any components that invert polarity. I don't think we got an answer.

My room is acoustically treated as much as a listening/living room can be. Following the instructions of John Devore for setting up his speakers is what locked the image into place. It doesn't take a masters degree in acoustic engineering to properly set up a listening room, no disrespect to that member. Maybe it helps that I know what to listen for due to my years working as an audio engineer.

 

Comical!

First your remark here made absolutely no sense at all because the acoustic of a personal room dont need to be the exact replica of a mixing studio :

Uh, I doubt the recording engineers used Helmholtz resonators when they mixed the recording.

 

 

Here it is easy to understand that you listen to your system perhaps in some room with some acoustic passive treatment but not to a mechanically controlled room if the sound scape of your system/room stay between the speakers 95 % of the time.... This illustrate the importance of Helmholtz mechanical control for fine tuning specific speakers to as specific room...Because most of my albums not only have imaging but a depth sound scape out the speakers surface axis in the front/back direction , not so often in the left/right direction outside of the speaker... like i say in some rare recording it is even better, my soundscape may come AROUND me and from behind or some voices be beside my ears with the orchestra behind the speakers inside the wall...

lso, as a reviewer I got to hear many $500k+ systems in well-treated rooms, and in NONE of them did I hear 50% of the sound coming from outside the speakers unless the recording called for it, and 95% do not

 

 

Also being a reviewer you may probably be like many audiophile a "gear fetichist" sorry, ignoring the power of acoustic and especially of psycho-acoustic, thinking that S.Q’ come directly from the system speakers instead of the system/room...

Divide the speed of sound by the size of your room if you want to know how many times in one second the soundwaves crossed your room and your ears to understand how REFLECTED waves play also a fundamental role even in NEAR listening position in most small room...In my room it is 13 times per second....If you want to know my room dimension use the speed of sound and make this child calculus...

You sell gear upgrade, i sell creativity and acoustic method at no cost in a dedicated room...

By the way i never pretended that my system is BETTER than most, it is only a relatively well chosen basic low cost one vintage; in the contrary i know perfectly well that half people in audiogon own better system than mine BUT IN BAD ACOUSTIC environment or in not so well treated and controlled room for sure....

My bet, you’ve constructed a room that radically diffuses the sound so you get width at the expense of center fill. You could get that much easier with some cheap Bose 901s. Again, you’re off on your own island and I don’t even understand you.

 

 

You are comical ...I dont bet often myself sorry, i made 2 years listening experiments in my room, enough to know that between DIFFUSION/ ABSORPTION/ REFLECTION, what matter is the appropriate ratio to apply for a scpecific speakers/room /ears relation...

And by the way the first acoustical factor to get right to begin with and the last one to get right in an ongoing set of experiments is naturalness of TIMBRE perception...You cannot have timbre right with DISTORTIONS and excess of diffusion , or excess of absorption or excess of reflections... You cannot have piano timbre right in a bad pressure zones room distribution... Read about timbre perception in acoustic and psycho acoustic...

Timbre perception is the most important acoustic cue... The guide to tune a room, not listener envelopment factor, not imaging and not soundstage...Because you can have "some" imaging with an imperfect system/ room but you cannot have a good instrument timbre in an imperfectly controlled room... Natural sounding Timbre is the hallmark of audiophile experience...

You dont understand me because you read too much audio articles magazine and not enough acoustic/psycho acoustic basic...I dont read marketing article ...

Try Helmholtz...And dont bet about room acoustic you dont know about....

All acoustic effects you dont know about are not explained by alleging "out of phase effect " from the audio system, or excess diffusion or excess reflections in a room ...

I am not deaf, i dont listen to any of my 7 headphones, do you think that i prefer distortions all across my room to a good Stax headphone?

If i could bet with you,  i will  bet you never know what the acoustical definition of "listener envelopment "means in psycho-acoustic, and the way to gain it,  and i bet you never wrote about it in your reviews about the gear...

It is a safer bet than reducing my room to be a distorted mirror with no coherency because you dont know acoustic basic BY YOURSELF AND WITH YOUR EARS experiments......

😁😊😊😊😊😊

I apologize for my impertinent answer to your presomtuous post...

My best to you....