Dipole speakers, subwoofers and that rear wall


I own modern quad dipole speakers (2912s). I’ve heard many stories about speaker position, but never something that rang as fully logical to me. I can imagine 3 choices:

 

1/ dipole pretty much against the wall, maybe slight toe-in. The reflecting sound will come quickly after the straight sound and might cancel out the direct wave

2/ dipole far from corner (I hear quad recommends 1.5m). Reflections will amplify the sound?

Both statements feel like they’re incomplete. Surely the frequency, or frequencieS being played matter a lot if the reflected sound is in phase (amplifies) or in antiphase (attenuates) the direct sound. I can imagine perfecting positioning for one frequency and its modes, but not for 20-20,000 hz full spectrum.

 

3/ Close the rear of the dipole or have sound-absorbing material behind the speaker

The third one seems somewhat more logical, since I can’t imagine a sinewave that’s being attenuated by a reflected wave being accurately-sine-y unless the reflection is exactly in counterphase with the frequency played.

But on the other hand, if I have an actual instrument that is somewhat reminiscent of an actual dipole (e.g. a snare drum pointing upward) will have similar reflections on the rear wall.

 

I guess it "feels" true that you don’t want to stuff a musician in a corner too much but I’m not sure if this will negatively impact his sound?

 

As for the second part, a proper subwoofer moves quite a bit of air, can that air damage a dipole eletrostatic speaker?

puntloos

What is a "tuned chamber?" I've never heard of this room treatment.

Instead of dipole, use both front and rear baffles and both are enclosed within the cabinet design. RM50 VMPS. There are a few more now. The old QLS Infinity.  NOT the RS OB design. RS1 & Bs and the 2 and 2Bs or the IRS series.

A boxes (or cabinet) with TWO active baffles, front and rear.

Tune the room?

Read my Handle.. Helmholtz. The only way to properly tune a room.. 

There is a guy that post here that uses the term "Embedding" he has 3 major areas. HE is very close on his design.. A little muddled in his room, BUT he did it by reading and experimenting. A brave endeavor by my standards. :-)

Helmholtz, I use adjustable slot resonators for above 120hz and adjustable tube traps for 120hz and below. All designed by SB/SAT. Oldhvymec's design, it works VERY well. I've used them for over 10 years. He's been at it for over 45 years. 

Curtains, Resonators and Tube traps. OHM bass system is the bomb. Ask him. He always helped me. I have one of his air ride decoupling systems from way back.

For clarity, do you mean the front wall???  

Think of it like this.  When you go to a performance, are the performers in front of you or in back?

Dipoles are unique and enjoyable speakers.  As noted above, embrace and don't destroy the rear wave.  Use diffraction, NOT absorptive surfaces on the front wall.  Why would you want to defeat what this design type is all about?  If you can't pull them well off the front wall you will miss out on what these speakers can do.

For me, in the final analysis, dipoles are fun but not always the most accurate.  But in the right room with the right music, well you may be a very happy camper indeed.

helmholtzsoul

> What is a "tuned chamber?" <

Instead of dipole, use both front and rear baffles and both are enclosed within the cabinet design. RM50 VMPS. There are a few more now. The old QLS Infinity ...

Oh, you mean "cabinet." That’s what most people call the box that holds speaker drivers.

Oh, you mean "cabinet." That’s what most people call the box that holds speaker drivers.

 

What I mean is the mids and highs are in separate enclosures in the front and rear. They have NO common space between front and back mids and or highs. Usually about 18-22" apart (front to rear). Front baffle and Rear baffle enclosures are within the CABINET housing. They fire from the back of the speaker and hit the front wall FIRST. They don’t require such a large, long space to produce the same airy affect but they are deadly accurate also..

Small planars enclosed with NO open rear pole from the front driver. Way better design.. GR tried the same thing.. I had both of his Neo 10 x 2 and X 4. Like I said great sound affects, but accurate, NOT even close. His NX (?) different story.

Danny was also the fixer on the 123s too. Kinda.. LOL. They were just BAD. You needed a stadium size room to start with. The sweet spot was as wide as a sofa and it wasn’t so sweet. :-) There were several pairs around here 15-20 years ago.

GRs OB servo is a VERY nice system. I use it with Rythmiks sealed systems. They aren't cheap to finish out either.. Paint is through the roof.. 1K to 2K in one year for auto finish. 100% mark up.

The rear wave is not what these speakers are all about it is just, with most designs, a necessary evil. What you should try to do is minimize the downside to dipoles and then attempt to make them as accurate as possible. Listen to Duke's advice from Audiokinesis. Other than the obvious limitations of my Quads the only downside to this speaker is the rear wave and it must be dealt with.