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objective vs. subjective rabbit hole

There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.

It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?

To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?

128x128snilf
mitch2
4,087 posts
 

How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence

IMO, rather than be persuaded, people should review both subjective opinions as well as objective measurements and specifications, compare those with their own experiences, and then come to their own conclusions.

However, any information on these forums could (should?) be viewed with healthy skepticism. Measurements can be both scientifically correct but also misleading in that the parameters being measured may or may not have the degree of impact on how something sounds as you might be "persuaded" to believe.

Likewise, subjective opinions rely on the experience and bias of the person providing the opinion. For example, how much reliance do you have in posters who report that the sound of their systems are "totally transformed" just about every time they install a new cable, fuse, or other tweek? Is that even possible, or are they just prone to exaggeration? When the same tweek fails to have a similar effect on the sound of your own system, common themes here are that your system is not resolving enough, or you didn’t let it burn in long enough, or maybe you just don’t hear well. I find it helpful when I am able to view the poster’s virtual system as their equipment choices provide some context or basis for their opinions, as do their previous posting history.

How about manufacturers who blur the lines between objective scientific facts and subjective hyperbole. As an example:

About the size of a shirt button, yet powerful enough to transform the way you experience music...your speakers and room disappear leaving you with nothing but a live holographic musical event in your listening room...

...oscillate at high frequencies creating an energy field in your room that overpowers room vibrational distortions to correct phase and frequency interactions for harmonic balance in your treated room. You hear an increase in depth and width, with clearer more extended highs, and tighter bass. Everything sounds more live, clearer, and more natural than you could ever imagine.

All of the above is claimed to result from placing 5 very small cylinders or discs ("the size of a shirt button") on the walls of the listening room and/or on the speakers - I find this an amazing blend of scientific claims and subjective rhetoric.

nonoise's avatar
nonoise
10,928 posts
 

@mrmb , Well said.

 

tsushima1
1,165 posts
 

@mrmb , Quite … Once upon a time most of these tweeks  were reasonably inexpensive so where was the harm ? $3K fuse anyone

mrmb's avatar
mrmb
299 posts
 

@mrmb , Quite … Once upon a time most of these tweeks  were reasonably inexpensive so where was the harm ? $3K fuse anyone

"Reasonably inexpensive"?  What's the heck does “reasonably inexpensive” mean?  Reasonable cost wise, is only reasonable in the eye of the beholder and their bank account. 

When it comes to discretionary spending, why would I pass any reasonableness judgement on any seller or buyer?  In fact, why would I pass judgement on anyone but myself and my wallet? 

Besides, if someone wants to spend their income on a $3,000 fuse, or $47,000 on a gold & diamond encrusted 1-meter IC and wear it around their neck as jewelry, why would I, or anyone care, or use the term "harm", when NO harm is always the answer?  Frankly, I'm happy that there are people with disposable incomes to buy whatever fuses they choose and more!  And if they don't have the disposable income, again why should I care; or consider posting or arguing the insanity (to me), of some of the questionable products (to me) pawned-off as being beneficial?

I don't know about anyone else, but living within my means, began with my first job at 14.  It is a lesson that must be learned long before buying non-essentials, let alone luxury items like 100% of the audio items discussed in this forum.  If you have it, there is always someone who will want it and will do whatever it takes to get it.  This includes every relationship you have and every possession you own, including your money.  Does anyone with the ability to read and comprehend this forum and thread not understand this basic fact of human nature and life?  So yeah, have fun, buy those $3,000 fuses that have no known electrical measurable advantages and enjoy!

mceljo
1,357 posts
 

@celtic66 - You post entertained me.  F1 engines are designed without limitations which is different than assembly line produced engines, but they are absolutely designed with extremely tight specification.  I'd bet that 99% of what they do is designed with CAD prior to the first prototype with reliable results.  This can only be done if they understand the science behind every aspect of the design and materials.  They can reliably predict if the design will produce the power and torque that they want along with the associated power bands along with reliability.  It's a fairly perfect example of the objective point of view though I don't see anything similar being possible with audio if for no other reason than there are so many external factors that the designers cannot control.

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