First the room. I have bookshelf speakers in the living room with a sub and I love the sound it all creates (won’t go into detail about specs, not the point here). It’s beautiful and I love it. Then I have a system in the basement and the sound is completely different. The living room gives an open and spacious sound and moving the same system to the basement gives it a focused and not spacious sound. The tones and detail is good just not as grand a sound as in the LR. Secondly, the sound was horrible in the basement until I put the speakers against the long wall. My point is the same system in two rooms sounds completely different and a choosing a different wall made a monumental difference but still can’t match an open room. I’m a Vandersteen owner (basement system) and i know all about speaker positioning and optimization. There has got to be diminishing returns on a sound system when your room is limited in what it can do with the acoustics.
Hearing. I recently had a hearing test and found I had hearing loss (a couple of decibels) in the mid frequencies (low and high were fine) and that it wasn’t due to age or damage but rather something I was born with. So what I hear and what you hear is different. I’m sure most of us have variations in our frequency responses. So when someone gives their endorsement on a amp or speaker or whatever, that sounds good to them and might not sound good to you. There is something to be said for tonal adjustments and for me in the 1kHz range. The point here is you need to decide what sounds good to you and you might not like that component someone swears is the best.
I’m always amazed and the amount of money people drop on systems and maybe they don’t need to spend that much money due to limitations mentioned above.
It’s not a fun topic but you have to admit there could be a lot you can do with the room to make the sound better. But maybe there is nothing you can do and no amount of money on equipment will change that.
I have two systems, the first is in a bad room with some treatments and the second is in an okay room with just a little conditioning. The speakers are different, the amps are different the preamps are different, most of the wires are different, the sources are different, so of course they will sound different.
And as for my hearing? I can hear just fine as far as volume, but I’m sat to say, I can’t hear much above 11k.
From the OP, "There has got to be diminishing returns on a sound system when your room is limited in what it can do with the acoustics."
Indeed, but we all try to do the best we can with those limitations. Many of us can’t put speakers where they SHOULD be, so we compromise. Or we try adding some discrete room treatment - if they meet the WAF. In reality, unless someone has a dedicated listening room, most cannot put in the honking bass traps that would be necessary.
All the more reason to use good headphones sometimes. I tell my friends that you can get $10K speaker performance from a $2K (or less!) headphone - as long as you are willing to forgo the gut hitting punch of a good sub or woofer.
Regarding hearing loss. Well, we will all deal with that sooner or later. (and some unfortunate ones will get tinnitus, constantly hearing a sine wave around 8,000 Hz). High frequencies start to roll off for many in their 30s and 40s. The lucky ones delay that to their 50s.
I had a hearing test done by an audiologist and mine rolls off at 13KHz now (I’m 63 and tried to protect my hearing over the years - at least after I was 30 and not so young and foolish). But that doesn’t mean I want my SPEAKERS to roll off there. I still want them to be the best they can be at their price point, even if I can’t hear it.
Long ago I sold a decent system to a gent who lived in a Brownstone on Commonwealth Ave in Boston’s Back Bay. It was a spacious room with high coffered ceilings, a huge oriental carpet, was lined with walnut woodwork, well filled bookcases, overstuffed chairs, a baby grand piano… you get the picture. The system was a pair of KEF 104/2s and an NAD 7155 integrated receiver and matching CD player. The wiring was 16ga. zip cord, like from the hardware store. Patch cord was what came with the player. He was into opera. When I finished hooking it up the first disc he chose was a Georg Solti London set of something by Wagner with I think Nilsson singing soprano. I had heard these speakers in the store extensively and owned a pair myself but nothing prepared me for how amazing they sounded with no break in in this room. Completely convincing sound stage, tonally uncolored, seemingly unlimited dynamics.
so yeah, I guess the room matters…a lot.
I built my system in our living room. We have hardwood floors throughout the first floor and a large 10 x 13 Persian rug. I think we have the right balance between hardwood floors and Persian rug. I think the hardwood floors help to brighten up the sound and improve my sound stage. The real game changer was when I added two REL SHO's. Suddenly the soundstage presented itself. It is critical to make sure you blend the subwoofers with the towers to play more like woofers.
In my experience (on these pages): it seems when one brings up another's, "hearing", or: "aural acuity"; as a variable in their perceptions, the reaction is often denial. AS IF everyone's senses don't vary in acuity, to one degree or another.
Then again: denying reality seems a trend, not only on these pages, but...
Anyway: If were truly OCD, there are more of my own posts on the subject to reference, and A LOT of other folks as well, if you type, "aural acuity" in your SEARCH DISCUSSIONS box.
The listening room is an obvious MAIN variable and: one's hearing is another. BUT: when acuity, the training of another ears, or: HOW they listen are brought up, it's taken much more personally (silliness).
Of course it does. People will always gravitate, toward those with like opinions/references/experience(not to mention: aural acuity, or- lack thereof).
Gustatory perception varies as much as aural acuity. If YOU can't taste or hear it(whatever,"it" may be), there's little doubt, it wouldn't be of value TO YOU.
How refreshing, that someone frequenting this site, actually realizes there are varying levels of aural acuity, possibly responsible for an inability/ability to hear certain things. KUDOS, Erik!
Stereo Review’s, "funniest" and biggest joke was Julian Hirsch, the stone deaf, everything-sounds-the-same, "audiophile". Of course, those of like aural acuity never could get the joke.
Apparently: the definition of, "aural acuity" even escapes some geniuses. As with EVERY sense; abilities/sensitivity levels vary, widely. ie: Some are born with perfect pitch and others, tone deaf. The first can’t be taught, or- the second, corrected. Some will wrestle with the concept. I couldn't care less!
As you have now realized, based on ACTUALLY TRYING THE UPGRADES YOURSELF, and on your own AURAL ACUITY; improvements to your power supply(whether internal to the components, or to your AC source) can yield obvious and audible benefits. KUDOS for ignoring the naysayers, pseudo-scientists and Julian Hirsch clones. HAPPY LISTENING!!
Empirical evidence(empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge or the, "a posteriori") is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation. ie: The second 50% of my last post(my personal experience/observations). Of course; accepting those conclusions would depend on one's confidence in my aural acuity, experience with sound/music and powers of observation. Happy listening!
BTW: A good way to audition cables, in your own system,
without having to buy outright, is The Cable Company's lending
library: (http://www.usedcable.com/) &
(http://thecableco.com/) Whatever you pay for an audition,
will be deducted from the price, should you decide to
purchase. Great people which which to deal, and you don't
have to depend on someone else's opinions/tastes/aural acuity.
Rleff- Once you've purchased a hi-end power cord(ie- Synergistic research AC Master Coupler, PS Audio XStream, Zu Mother- or better than those mentioned), and burned it in; you will understand the changes through which it will progress(the electrically biased ones excepted). That depends on the resolution of your system and your ability to discern the differences(system variances and aural acuity/training differences existing in so great a divergence).
YEP, "variables"! Semantics, perceptions, systems, aural acuities, references(if any), etc. Of course, the better(to me, more neutral/transparent/clean/natural/quiet/fast) ANYTHING(tubes/rectifiers/caps/cables/special copper/silver) swapped into the total system, the more obvious strengths OR weaknesses upstream will become. The natural tendency(for most) would be to attribute whatever perceived differences might be exposed, to the new component(s). "Best" will always be subjective.
It’s sad, how many fail to acknowledge the disparity of aural acuity (just like every other sense), among our species. A good man will recognize his own limitations. A wise man recognizes; not everyone shares the same limitations. How many of the naysayers have actually TRIED better cables, etc, is another topic. Then again; channelling Julian Hirsch just seems popular, in these threads. Even if one has to resurrect a seven year old thread, to accomplish the task.
"Of course, everyone's system and listening preferences (and probably bias too) will vary." You forgot aural acuity, critical listening aptitude/experience, familiarity with real instruments/vocals in a live venue and(perhaps) ear wax. There are a plethora of variables! Synergistic offers a money-back satisfaction guarantee. Any Dollar-induced bias should be subtracted from the opinion equation, as it won't cost you anything, not to like it. Then again; those with the preconceived notion that it can't possibly make any difference, already have a built-in, set in concrete, bias against such tweaks.
"........but when someone brings up a group, made of up actual audio researchers, experts, and others who are viewed by their peers as experts, that that group is suddenly of "no value"." Perhaps: expectation bias and peer pressure? Oh, wait: those guys(the Naysayer Cadre) are COMPLETELY impartial(snort of derision). Or- is it possible, that there’s been a panel, selected from a completely random pool of music lovers, that have never met or compared notes, as relates to their listening preferences/biases? And: had their aural acuity tested, prior to listening? I’d be mildly interested in the results myself, were that the case!
"Read my articles "Audiophile Law:" = "TRUST ME!" *
Many (if not most) of us are familiar the fruits of Atmasphere's aural acuity, experimentation and creativity.
What significant offerings, for the furtherance of our listening experience (ie: equipment pleasing to the ear), have you generated, outside of your opinions?
Awards won (presented by other esteemed ears)?
My own lengthy experience and gleanings from the study of certain MODERN electrical theories aside; I'm much more disposed to accept Atmasphere's viewpoint, based on actual accomplishment.
The hypothesis is (whatever the particular wire, tweak, etc); that a change (good or bad) can be heard. If one desires to apply, "science", to an agenda, regarding their listening enjoyment; experimentation is an absolute requirement. iow: One must actually TRY, whatever’s being discussed, with their own ears, in their own system. The electrical/electronic variables, as well as biases and/or aural acuity, are too myriad to calculate. As one notable Physicist, theorist and Nobel Laureate (popular, for his lectures on QED) is usually quoted, " It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong." THAT’S, "logic".
@unreceivedogma- Changes in temp and humidity, are also mentioned in some of the above studies, as affecting TS parameters. Then too; sound propagates somewhat differently, with those changes. The disparity of aural acuity, between individuals(not to mention training/experience/perception and maybe: simply denial), is why(I’m certain), some don’t/can’t/refuse to hear the changes made by fuses, cables and speaker break-in. I don’t believe EVERY system, goes through(or- can resolve) changes that ARE audible/obvious. Some, no doubt, simply want to enjoy their music and not be bothered with listening that intently. Some of us have engaged these issues professionally. So many variables!
My first reaction to, "embedment" wasn't exactly positive. Since; I've adjusted my thinking. Some simply communicate their thoughts differently. As many of us understand (sometimes, from decades of experience); what are being termed such, are prerequisites for any good music venue's viability. In a properly, "embedded" home environment; the better the associated gear, the more obvious and efficacious any tweaks should become. That's- IF, from the start, they are worth their weight in salt and compatible. I'm referring to performance, since aural acuity varies greatly. KUDOS, to those that experiment, regardless of result. Also: Some seem to miss the fact, that improvements in sound are (or- should be) cumulative. The only limit is one's own satisfaction (far as I can tell, anyway).
It's important to note that there are many variables that will determine, or limit, a listener's ability to discern improvements/changes in presentation. ie: A system(source/pre/speakers/cables) that does not present or pass the info on the recording, poor recordings, room acoustics, aural acuity(actually; the lack there-of), the untrained ear, and the ubiquitous mental block(a refusal to hear what is obvious to others, because it doesn't agree with your mindset). Don't let the opinion of another stop you from experimenting with your own system. There are numerous simple/inexpensive mods and tube upgrades for the ST-70, that will yield much musical pleasure, if you ignore the naysayers(again- providing the rest of your system, and your ears, support them). Besides- It's just fun to experiment! Happy listening, all.
There are way too many variables, when it comes to systems and cables (regardless of description/placement), for anyone to make categorical propositions as to how much or whether your sound/presentation will benefit from their replacement.
Then: there are the aural acuity disparities that exist between people (as with any of our other senses), which many choose to deny.
It's been my experience, the better the equipment, room acoustics, component's power supply and everything else involved; the more obvious an upgrade in house wiring, cables or interconnects will appear.
The only way to tell whether any (or what) upgrades in your system's wires will prove beneficial, within your own budget constraints, is to try it yourself, in your room, with your ears.
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