Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@crymeanaudioriver Of course you took my ASR statements out of context.  

The liar statement refers to AMIR's specific perversion of my neutral statements concerning types of listener's music on THIS FORUM.  

As to the ASR, why don't you post the entire idiotic and stupid comments made the entire 1 or 2 hours I posted, beginning with my benign neutral statements, then becoming more insistent that these ASR posters refused to hear anything they didn't measure or use alternative (better source) material for evaluating equipment.  I did not say anything about their taste in music, only related to evaluating equipment-hip-hop, reggae, ska, punk, alternative rock, trash metal, industrial, 90s techno, progressive techno, dnb, narco corridos, cumbia are generally bereft of many elements of audio.   Compare to classical orchestral, jazz and big band.  There is a difference in audio recordings.  Why not use all of them?  I suggested jazz-which was immediately shot down.  There is nothing wrong with listening to alternative/modern music (except gangsta rap which wants police dead and women raped).  

You are an incestuous follower of Amir.  Maybe his wife or husband posting here.

@nonoise Brilliant-Audio Measurement Review

ASR Geert posted that Audiogon has removed it’s own postings. No, I removed my own and reposted them because I was being too angry (going down to their level).

Now the posters are going after OldHvyMec for suggesting/stating that equipment always Breaks-in and mostly because he had the audacity to state that cable also breaks-in/burns-in.  Some say he should leave and go to wire testing forums.

267 ASR posts in rebuttal with more now coming against Audiogon forum and it's moderator.  

@whipsaw 

@amir_asr

This neatly encapsulates what some may perceive as your apparent myopia, and the associated problem that many have with ASR. If you believe that the above is truly a shared goal, then why on earth would you insist that better measuring components necessarily produce better sound?

You didn't read any of that from me so I don't know why you ask me to explain it.  Better measurements mean an audio device is better engineered.  Whether that translates into better sound requires analysis which I perform in reviews often.  A jitter measurement showing spikes routinely states if they are below threshold of hearing for example.

When it comes to non-linear distortions, audiophiles are notoriously poor at hearing those artifacts.  It is for this reason that even poor measuring gear is praised as sounding good.

So no, when it comes to electronics, better measurements don't "necessarily" translate into better sound.  In acoustic measurements however, they are highly powerful in predicting preference.  A colored speaker is simply liked less than one is that more true to the source.  Again, not guaranteed but highly likely.

So if you want to be critical of what I say, first state my position correctly and failing that, quote me.  Don't use talking points by people with aims other than finding the truth in audio.

 

 

First, welcome to Audiogon Amir!

I’m a long time Audigon Forum member, but have been a prolix poster on ASR as well for years :-)

It’s sad to see the "welcome" you’ve been given by *some* members here.

 

To the rest of the crowd:

I find it ironic that a lot of the criticism is often couched in terms of Amir’s attempt to inform as being just a flexing of ego.

What I see actually happening is some here can’t get past their own ego to acknowledge that..".hey...maybe Amir DOES know more about these subjects than I do."

But the ’subjective’ paradigm allows anyone to feel they are the personal experts of a sort: "Oh, some guy with actual ’expert’ knowledge in electronics is telling me that’s not how the gear works? Well I don’t have to listen to him! You see, I have my OWN experience hearing things, so I KNOW these products work like they are promoted to work."

This is like a perfect firewall to ignoring any expert testimony or information you want to ignore. As has been seen all over this thread. This "My Ears Don’t Lie" stance produces the audio equivalent of Dunning Kruger and is hard to penetrate.

Now, I don’t see that everyone here is that intractable. But it certainly is software running through many of these attacks on Amir.

So, as an Audiogon forum member (and member of other "subjective-oriented" sites) AND a long time ASR member, I’ll give my 2 cents on the ASR forum:

1. They do not reflexively hound away anyone with different opinions. Generally, the theme there is that if you are making claims about equipment, they would like to see something beyond "I’m Sure I Heard It." So technically plausible explanations, evidence in the form of measurements to understand what’s going on, or at least if the claim is in the technically disputable realm, evidence from controlled testing (blinded) that one can reliably detect the sonic differences claimed.

Nothing wrong at all with that as the remit of that forum. If you don’t your claims being put to such scrutiny, you don’t need to visit that forum.

 

2. That said, the general atmosphere is fairly "open" in terms of discussions. For an "objective based" forum it’s pretty relaxed. So long as you can be civil and are willing to engage honestly instead of dismissively, you can voice any opinion. For instance, I have continually argued for why I still value subjective descriptions in audio, why I value exchanging notes with other audiophiles, why I still value some subjective reviews. There is something of an overall allergy to such stuff at ASR I will admit, which is one reason I find myself defending it. BUT...again...there hasn’t been a hint of running me off the forum. I’ve engaged in plenty of great discussions.

3. While everyone will have some biases operating, I find Amir to generally be a straight-shooter. He has given thumbs up to a number of products one might predict he’d disparage, even including recommending some tiny ridiculously expensive Wilson TuneTOT speakers - where Wilson is typically the whipping-boy of most "objectivists" because they tend to measure wonky.

 

4. Personally I love that there is a forum where I can get more reliable, objective information about audio products. Do I have make my own choices some rote following of whatever I read at ASR? Not at all. But it’s up to me, and I’m so glad for the information avaialble on that site. I really think ASR is one of the most important, impactful audio web sites at this time. The fact Amir INCLUDES testing of all sorts of controversial audio-tweak stuff - expensive digital cables etc - is a HUGE bonus for those who want to spend their money advisedly, rather than being at the mercy of just manufacturer claims or audiophile anecdotes.

 

5. That said, I still value places like the Audiogon forum where I can indulge in exchanging notes on the subjective nature of the hobby - describing "what THIS product sounds like." I personally scale my confidence levels in these descriptions to the plausibility of the claims (e.g.if an Agon member describes his audition of two different speakers, I’m all ears. If he describes the difference his new $1,000 USB cable made...not so much).

 

6. Along the lines above: the very nature of the ASR site encourages a trend-line towards rating certain types of products higher than others, and lauding products that are aligning with similar technical goals - for instance speakers that align more with the Toole/Olive/Harman Kardon research, amps that measure super low SINAD/distortion etc. This is TOTALLY understandable. However, it also means that many there are not interested in some of the gear I’m interested in. So I still get value out of sites like Audiogon where I can exchange notes with people interested in gear that wouldn’t really be on ASR’s radar or focus.