Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy


"Audiophiles are Snobs"  Youtube features an idiot!  He states, with no equivocation,  that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good.  He is either deaf or a liar or both! 

There is a site filled with posters like him called Audio Science Review.  If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money. They also occasionally state that the high end audio equipment/cable/tweak sellers are criminals who commit fraud on the public.  They often state that if something scientifically measures better, then it sounds better.   They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance.   Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.  

Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?  

fleschler

 

First, welcome to Audiogon Amir!

I’m a long time Audigon Forum member, but have been a prolix poster on ASR as well for years :-)

It’s sad to see the "welcome" you’ve been given by *some* members here.

 

To the rest of the crowd:

I find it ironic that a lot of the criticism is often couched in terms of Amir’s attempt to inform as being just a flexing of ego.

What I see actually happening is some here can’t get past their own ego to acknowledge that..".hey...maybe Amir DOES know more about these subjects than I do."

But the ’subjective’ paradigm allows anyone to feel they are the personal experts of a sort: "Oh, some guy with actual ’expert’ knowledge in electronics is telling me that’s not how the gear works? Well I don’t have to listen to him! You see, I have my OWN experience hearing things, so I KNOW these products work like they are promoted to work."

This is like a perfect firewall to ignoring any expert testimony or information you want to ignore. As has been seen all over this thread. This "My Ears Don’t Lie" stance produces the audio equivalent of Dunning Kruger and is hard to penetrate.

Now, I don’t see that everyone here is that intractable. But it certainly is software running through many of these attacks on Amir.

So, as an Audiogon forum member (and member of other "subjective-oriented" sites) AND a long time ASR member, I’ll give my 2 cents on the ASR forum:

1. They do not reflexively hound away anyone with different opinions. Generally, the theme there is that if you are making claims about equipment, they would like to see something beyond "I’m Sure I Heard It." So technically plausible explanations, evidence in the form of measurements to understand what’s going on, or at least if the claim is in the technically disputable realm, evidence from controlled testing (blinded) that one can reliably detect the sonic differences claimed.

Nothing wrong at all with that as the remit of that forum. If you don’t your claims being put to such scrutiny, you don’t need to visit that forum.

 

2. That said, the general atmosphere is fairly "open" in terms of discussions. For an "objective based" forum it’s pretty relaxed. So long as you can be civil and are willing to engage honestly instead of dismissively, you can voice any opinion. For instance, I have continually argued for why I still value subjective descriptions in audio, why I value exchanging notes with other audiophiles, why I still value some subjective reviews. There is something of an overall allergy to such stuff at ASR I will admit, which is one reason I find myself defending it. BUT...again...there hasn’t been a hint of running me off the forum. I’ve engaged in plenty of great discussions.

3. While everyone will have some biases operating, I find Amir to generally be a straight-shooter. He has given thumbs up to a number of products one might predict he’d disparage, even including recommending some tiny ridiculously expensive Wilson TuneTOT speakers - where Wilson is typically the whipping-boy of most "objectivists" because they tend to measure wonky.

 

4. Personally I love that there is a forum where I can get more reliable, objective information about audio products. Do I have make my own choices some rote following of whatever I read at ASR? Not at all. But it’s up to me, and I’m so glad for the information avaialble on that site. I really think ASR is one of the most important, impactful audio web sites at this time. The fact Amir INCLUDES testing of all sorts of controversial audio-tweak stuff - expensive digital cables etc - is a HUGE bonus for those who want to spend their money advisedly, rather than being at the mercy of just manufacturer claims or audiophile anecdotes.

 

5. That said, I still value places like the Audiogon forum where I can indulge in exchanging notes on the subjective nature of the hobby - describing "what THIS product sounds like." I personally scale my confidence levels in these descriptions to the plausibility of the claims (e.g.if an Agon member describes his audition of two different speakers, I’m all ears. If he describes the difference his new $1,000 USB cable made...not so much).

 

6. Along the lines above: the very nature of the ASR site encourages a trend-line towards rating certain types of products higher than others, and lauding products that are aligning with similar technical goals - for instance speakers that align more with the Toole/Olive/Harman Kardon research, amps that measure super low SINAD/distortion etc. This is TOTALLY understandable. However, it also means that many there are not interested in some of the gear I’m interested in. So I still get value out of sites like Audiogon where I can exchange notes with people interested in gear that wouldn’t really be on ASR’s radar or focus.

 

I did not say anything about their taste in music, only related to evaluating equipment- ...... Compare to classical orchestral, jazz and big band. There is a difference in audio recordings.

I have heard awful classical recordings, and jazz and much big band is old and mono.

However, for a group that goes on and on and on about emotional engagement as the most critical aspect, you sure are pretty narrow minded where you will allow that to apply.

 

You are an incestuous follower of Amir. Maybe his wife or husband posting here.

 

And now your true character comes out as well as a reminder why I did not want to use my main profile to enter this discussion.

 

Amir says, "When it comes to non-linear distortions, audiophiles are notoriously poor at hearing those artifacts.  It is for this reason that even poor measuring gear is praised as sounding good."

Tsk Tsk, another generalization without supporting data- bad science.  Actually, everyone is poor at hearing non-linear distortions because they occur naturally around us and even in our heads, inside our ears to be specific.  That is one reason tube amps without negative feedback sound better but SS amps without negative feedback can sound good too but look worse on paper.  

I heard arguments once that IM distortion was more critical to a pleasing sound than THD,  IM distortion occurs inside our heads too.  

Thomas Edison used to have stage shows in the 1900's where he put his new phonograph on stage behind a thin curtain.  He had a live opera singer on stage as well.  He would have the audience guess if the singing was live or a recording.  Sold a lot of phonographs that way.  

seems like this whole thing is really just a left-brain vs right-brain debate. anecdotally, all the best sounding systems ive heard have been put together by people who cant be bothered with such a binary view of things. instead of either/or it’s both/and

Now the posters are going after OldHvyMec for suggesting/stating that equipment always Breaks-in and mostly because he had the audacity to state that cable also breaks-in/burns-in.

 

How DARE they actually put some critical thinking to those claims and ask for evidence! Why don’t the many members there with technical knowledge and experience with electronics just flat out accept whatever OldHvyMec claims, even if it contradicts their own experience and knowledge of technical theory? Some anonymous poster making dubious technical claims ought to trump all that and they should bypass any demands for evidence out of deference to this new poster!

 

How dare they!  So mean and irrational of them!