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Audio Science Review = Rebuttal and Further Thoughts

@crymeanaudioriver @amir_asr You are sitting there worrying if this or that other useless tweak like a cable makes a sonic difference.

I don’t worry about my equipment unless it fails. I never worry about tweaks or cables. The last time I had to choose a cable was after I purchased my first DAC and transport in 2019.  I auditioned six and chose one, the Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria. Why would someone with as fulfilling a life as me worry about cables or tweaks and it is in YOUR mind that they are USELESS.

@prof "would it be safe to say you are not an electrical designer or electrical engineer? If so, under what authority do you make the following comment" - concerning creating a high end DAC out of a mediocre DAC.

Well, I have such a DAC, built by a manufacturer of equipment and cables for his and my use. It beat out a $9,000 COS Engineering D1v and $5,000 D2v by a longshot. It is comparable to an $23,000 Meridian Ultradac. Because I tried all the latter three in comparison I say this with some authority, the authority of a recording engineer (me), a manufacturer (friend) and many audiophiles who have heard the same and came to the same conclusion.

Another DAC with excellent design engineer and inferior execution is the Emotiva XDA-2. No new audio board but 7! audiophile quality regulators instead of the computer grade junk inside, similar high end power and filter caps, resistors, etc. to make this into a high end DAC on the very cheap ($400 new plus about the same in added parts).

@russ69 We must be neighbors. I frequented Woodland Hills Audio Center back in the 70s and 80s. I heard several of Arnie’s speakers including a the large Infinity speakers in a home.

fleschler
kota1
2,706 posts
 

Question, someone spends $20K on a system and the other guy spends $50K.

The guy that spent $20K has components that measure meh, but his in room system measurements are ideal.

They guy that spent $50K has pristine component measurements but his in room system measurement is meh.

Whose system will likely sound better?

prof
3,474 posts
 

 

 

@fleschler 

@prof I NEVER MENTIONED THE BENCHMARK PREAMP OF ANY SORT!!!

Can’t you read?

Yes, I can read.

I also have a memory that lasts more than one day ;-)

Here's YOUR post that I was referring to:

 

 

Your words:

"As to the Benchmark L4 versus the CJ pre-amp, one of the comments was The LA4 certainly isn't "lacking" anything. It's just transparent. But I could say it does 'lack' certain things in the sense of comparison to the CJ tube preamp.  Based on my experience with both brands, I found CJ to have a house sound, not one that I or my friends prefer.  The Benchmark, on the other hand, stock is clean and clear but lacking in areas the CJ excels-body and warmth of expression.  

There is a cure for the Benchmark.  Replace the computer quality, cheap-ass regulators, power and filter caps, maybe parts of the audio board, the Op-amp, etc. with audio (much more costly) parts.  Benchmark products are only okay stock but can be great when modified. "

So you literally referenced the LA4, mentioned it's "stock" sound and went on to explain the "cure" being higher quality/more expensive parts.  EXACTLY what I was addressing.

An apology would be nice, if you are up to it ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

prof
3,474 posts
 

 

@thyname

Dude. It’s not a claim. It’s sharing own experiences. What part of “sharing experience “ don’t you understand. Claim? You guys crack me up. And “counter claim”? 😂🤦‍♂️🙄

 

I understand how human language and the implication of what we say and write and human psychology actually works.

Almost all the things audiophiles report, which you couch as "sharing experience," constitute truth claims. That very fact explains the acrimony in these threads!

So if an audiophile here says "I swapped out my stock power cable for a Shunyatta cable and it TOTALLY upgraded the sound of my system, it made the bass tighter, the sound cleaner etc"...that is something they believe to be true and thus are stating as true. It is a truth claim in that respect. Right?

That’s why, if some objectivist suggests "might you have IMAGINED it changed the sound?" the response tends to be an insulted "No! It’s not my imagination. It really works! It really DID upgrade the sound!"  They think it's true and defending their claim as true!  These threads have been strewn with just these type of claims!

So, as I said, you may say your personal motivation is "not to make any claim" but in fact, even you are likely doing so in what you write, and it is certainly the case most others are doing so.

It DOES NOT mean every audiophile’s report on their experience needs to be or ought to be challenged. Not at all. That would get utterly tedious if it were for every statement we ever make. By all means, share experiences.

But is it fair to debate certain controversial subjects now and again?

Of course. Especially because SOME threads openly invite these type of discussions, such as the previous ASR thread and this one.

 

And why do you try to mask where you stand on the Great Debate. Can’t you just be honest? Why the fuss. There is nothing wrong with you being a measurementalist

^^^ This is you showing that you don’t really care about understanding my position. Far from "masking’ I was explaining my position as clearly as possible, so you could see why I’ve been a long time member here as well as at ASR. How many references do you see to measurements in, for instance, my long "Contemplating Devores" thread where I discuss tons of speakers?

You are still dogmatically trying to fit a nuanced position in to a box of your choosing. I get that from certain inflexible thinkers at ASR as well. It’s tedious, so I bid you adieu.

fleschler OP
2,009 posts
 

@prof Again, if you read my original comment in the other forum, I was QUOTING from an ASR forum which is printed in italics As to the Benchmark L4 versus the CJ pre-amp, one of the comments was The LA4 certainly isn’t "lacking" anything. It’s just transparent. But I could say it does ’lack’ certain things in the sense of comparison to the CJ tube preamp. My following comments refer to my friends and my experience with Benchmark gear and Conrad Johnson gear in general, with my friends having experience with both companies amps and pre-amps and me with Benchmark DACs and many CJ amps and a few pre-amps. It is our experience that Benchmark products lack somewhat in body and warmth but CJ is dark and covered sounding. We were not specifying that we knew anything about the L4 other than what I read and extracted from an ASR forum. My audio equipment manufacturing friend has seen the insides of several Benchmark products and concurs that they use less than optimal audio quality parts which result in less satisfying audio results.  I was shown the different parts taken out and replaced in both DACs that were modified.  

The fact is you know nothing concerning the interior parts used in either CJ or Benchmark equipment and cannot comment on them until you do. Do you even know the difference between Ultralinear, Triode, Voltage Regulated (some Audio Research gear), Unity Coupled (early McIntosh), etc? I may not be an electrical engineer capable of building equipment but I understand basic circuitry. If you have a Benchmark product, open it up and look up the cost of the capacitors and regulators, then get back to me.

fleschler OP
2,009 posts
 

@prof Your Contemplating Devores forum is 100% subjective, wholly lacking in measurements in your opinions and choices.   What about all the ancillary equipment used to listen to each speaker in order to evaluate them in your room?  (Rhetorical).  

Despite having heard only the Audio Physic, Focal, Revel, Raidho, Paradigm, Monitor Audio and Harbeth speakers you surveyed, I agree with your opinions which I heard under show and/or showroom conditions with varying equipment. Your opinions and mine are wholly subjective.  

You then proceed in the ASR forum knocking the use of listening for differences and preferences as "imaginary" and unreal, listeners self-fulfilling prophesy.  Most of the Audiogon posters here are delineating the problems have had with the ASR site and their owner/many members.  Apparently, you cannot stop yourself from blanket criticizing everyone who posts an opinion on what they hear, even if they have possibly superior listening/hearing abilities than you do.  As to equipment, I suspect you neither construct nor comprehend electronic circuitry/parts use, based on your responses.   

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