End Game Turntable suggestions


Hello all, looking for insights to help me narrow down to some core choices; I am open to new or preowned. My system details can be seen under my profile.

In summary I have significantly expanded my vinyl collection and as of now I am looking to purchase an end game turntable appropriate for my setup. As you can see I use Mola Mola Kaluga Monos, and I really like the Zesto Pre and Phonostages. I find the class D/tube pre combination very pleasing. 

I would appreciate suggestions for around $5-8K (table + arm), new or used. I will have separate budget for cartridge. One preferred option (but not must-have) is universal voltage, as I may move the unit to Europe later. My current vintage turntable (Project Perspective) is 22 years old, and while I don't know how to compare to something really amazing, I can say that my setup is lacking detail and bass. The tonearm is terrible to keep aligned. Based on visits to Axpona and Cap Audio Fest and other research, I am thinking of a few in my budget, but will really value your suggestions of other brands:

- Origin Live Sovereign

- VPI Signature

- SAM Sinner

- Thorens TD 1601 (semi automatic)

Visual appeal is important to me (which is why Technics 1200 is not on my list despite great reviews everywhere). I love the idea of set it and forget it DD tables, but unfortunately mostly out of my budget (eg VPI HW-40 going for abt 11K used)....

Sorry for the long post but my hope is this background and help solicit good suggestions. Thanks

 

musicmatters1206

@mijostyn 

"The job of a turntable is to spin at the proper speed, prevent any spurious vibration from getting to the tonearm and sound like NOTHING. Anything it adds to "the sound" is distortion.

The job of the tonearm is to hold the cartridge solidly in the proper orientation, move to two directions only and absorb any energy coming from the cartridge to prevent it from reflecting. It should also not have a "sound."

The job of the cartridge is to translate the physical waveform on the record into an electrical waveform. It also should not have a "sound."

It is the record that "sounds." A record playing machine should not add or subtract anything to the sound that is on the record. The design of turntables, tonearms and cartridges should be evaluated with this in mind.

A record player is a vibration measuring device. The cartridge has no way of knowing where the vibration is coming from. It will turn any vibration into an electrical signal.

The environment is loaded with vibrational energy and the turntable has to isolate the other parts of the system from all of it.

Mass will not do it.

If a turntable does not have a proper isolation suspension then it should be placed on one.

It is much cheaper if one is built into the turntable.

The Dohmann Helix is probably the epitome of a suspended turntable. The classic is the AR XA followed by the Thorens TD 125 and the Linn LP12.

SOTA was the first to hang a turntable from springs instead of sitting it on top of springs, a much more stable design. Basis, SME and Avid followed suit. 

The RP 10 is a lot of turntable for the money. It is suspended on squishy rubber feet. It has a very stiff chassis and a great tonearm.

Up from that price wise is the Sota Sapphire with a Kuzma 4 Point 9 then up the Sota line to the Cosmos.

At this point we are already above the OP's budget but continuing onwards are the Avid Acutus and the SMEs. Next is Basis then the Dohmann Helix. Both Sota and Basis tables can be had with vacuum clamping.

When a tonearm tracks over warps the groove velocity changes and causes pitch to waver which is painfully obvious and far exceeds the minimal wow and flutter most modern turntables have. Vacuum clamping is the best at flattening the record. Reflex clamping Like the SMEs, the Acutus, non vacuum Sotas and the Helix is second best.

A record weight does little to nothing. Ring clamps are a PITA to use and an accident waiting to happen.

Of the turntables I mentioned above only the Sotas use a magnetic thrust bearing which is an advantage in terms of noise and durability. It does exactly the same thing as Techdas's air bearing at a fraction of the complexity and cost."

 

Bravo!

What an informative post that was.

It's a pity that posts like yours above can't be pinned for future reference.

This is turning out to be a great discussion, thanks everyone who has contributed.

@paulgardner thanks for the suggestion - I saw the ovation at Expona in action and its stunning, but i thought it was outside my budget. If i recall correctly the were showing them with Sonus Faber speakers; i will scan used market.

@re-lar-kvothe I really like the design and features of the 1601 but really curious if there is anything lacking sound-wise- I just cant find a place to audition it. I have a vintage Kyocera PL-701 semiautomatic with auto lift, what a convenience.

The 1601 is below my budget (even with a great cart), and i am curious what i will miss compared to lets say a used HW-40 if i can get it for abt 10K. Any thoughts welcome. As i raised in my original post, I am surely not chasing the last 5%.

Lastly, @fbgbill thanks for your HW-40 thoughts. Many people raise concerns abt potential future problems if motor goes bad - any idea if VPI stocks these motors? Thanks

And I will add - choosing a turntable is perhaps going to be the hardest purchase decision i have ever made :):) way too many amazing choices....what a privilege to be living in these times....

@mijostyn THANK YOU that was an amazing response and a lot to think about. Having now looked at the Basis Signature 2500 with vacuum, i am going to have sleepless nights....any idea what they fetch in used market? Thanks

If a Vacuum Clamping of the LP is wanted as a wish list and a TT offering this as a built in design is extending beyond the desired budget. There is other options to achieve a Vacuum Clamped LP.

I have had extended use of a loaned Audio Technica AT-666.

It will Clamp and Hold Vacuum for the duration of a side of a LP.

It does take a short process to achieve the Vacuum, but this period can be used in conjunction with a put in place with a Brush or Anti Static Treatment of the LP, so should not be to much addition to a pre play ritual. 

The AT-666 when used in a comparison with my selection of Platter Mats, has proved to a worthwhile addition, but is also the one that has produced the leanest presentation out of owned Metal Mats. In hindsight, I wish I had used the AT-666 as a stacked Platter Mat assembly as well to see what else could be extract from it.

A AT-666 in VGC should cost approx' £150, I have bought a Pump for £30 and will eventually acquire the mat to add to my collection.

The Design is available from other TT Brands as well, maybe having been produced by AT and rebranded. I know this has happened with AT Tonearms.

The Link is a few years old and will answer most questions.