room size question.

Well, two things:

You listed your gear but I am not familiar with any of it (which doesn’t mean anything as a couple of decades ago I quit keeping up on this stuff) but I did find in the decade before, that as I gradually upgraded the electronics in front of my speakers, everything (sonic-wise) got bigger, better, and tighter. I said I have been out of touch for the past two decades and that is true, but over the last three years I did splurge on a new SACD player & a preamp I could not afford and, sonic wise, things are at the best they have ever been. (But, sadly, I am still not having as much fun as I had about 25 years ago.)

Secondly, I read through this entire thread starting yesterday, but I can’t remember if something like this has been proposed, but maybe start over with a clean small equilateral triangle of about 4’ in the CENTER between walls and then start increasing it by equal increments and see if you can find something. Since that equilateral triangle will start out small, keep the back wall clear of gear and obviously no gear between your speakers (everything off to one side). I think I would start out with keeping the rear wall clean as well (if it was me).

@immatthewj 

So no matter the distance you put your speakers at, no happy medium?

i keep saying that the system sounds fine, i have vocals that image from the front.....but that is where it stops. 

if you go back and watch jays audio labs video and Paul from ps audio.....they both mention that there is a soundstage and there are layers behind the speakers that they also hear.              this is what i do not get.....and hence my post about can this be achieved in a smaller room ??       if you look at the size of both of those rooms in the videos, they are big rooms....a lot bigger than mine.     i think that a small room like mine has its limitations and this is going to be it. 

 keep the back wall clear of gear and obviously no gear between your speakers (everything off to one side). I think I would start out with keeping the rear wall clean as well (if it was me).

the equipment has to stay in between the speakers , there is no other option.    the stands i have are very low.....its basically a amp stand and then a stand that is two high that has the preamp on one and the cd player below that.

I found a set up description in a Stereophile Review of a PBN Montana.

" When he sets his speakers up in a listening room, PBN’s Noerbaek begins by placing the speakers about 2’ from the back wall and about 7’ apart. He then toes them in, finding the proper angle by extending the horizontal plane of the front baffle to intersect the outside rear corner of the other speaker. (This is easy to do with a length of string and a couple of pieces of tape.) Once the speakers are so positioned, they can be moved a little at a time until the optimum imaging is found.

In my room, I was able to get the Montanas relatively close to the rear wall without inducing any boominess. I found that a horizontal separation of about 6.5’ between the inside front corners was optimum in my room, and 16" out from the back wall was fine. The heavy-duty spike feet are essential for getting the most out of the EPS, but shouldn’t be installed until the speakers are close to their permanent positions. Once the feet are on, each speaker can be moved by tipping it back so all its weight is on one spike, then pivoting it around that point. Toe-in is critical if you want to get the best imaging from these speakers. "

1 Measure from the front of the speaker enclosure ( the baffle ) to the wall behind the Speakers and on the centreline ( for the sake of uniformity ).

2 Switch off the Subwoofers and find out what the Mains ( L+R channels ) sound like without Subs.

Don’t hesitate to adjust the distance to the wall and between the Speakers as well as the distance for listening position.

You are adjusting for both power response and soundstage - the image should extend beyond ( outside the speaker positions ).

Note the difference between the initial setup and how the reviewer positions the

L+R channels.

@rego 

good info, but those are not the speakers i have.

https://pbnaudio.com/personic-speakers/

i have the M2

i keep saying that the system sounds fine, i have vocals that image from the front.....but that is where it stops.

@bshaw , Sorry if I missed something, but I thought that you said that you either had imaging and no real sound stage or if you moved your speakers far enough apart you lost the imaging? That doesn’t sound fine to me.

.....and hence my post about can this be achieved in a smaller room ?? if you look at the size of both of those rooms in the videos, they are big rooms....a lot bigger than mine. i think that a small room like mine has its limitations and this is going to be it.

I listen in a room with less clean space than you have described, and although I do not know how accurate it is, my sound stage presents the illusion of being wider than the room is laterally and filling the space between my listening position & the rear wall and dead center imaging.. I hear plenty of height. (A lot of this is dependent upon the source CD. Some are WAY better than others.) I have no doubt at all in my mind that if I was to move back out into the living room with my gear that there would be sonic benefits, but I believe that the limitations of close field listening can be mitigated to a large extent.

the equipment has to stay in between the speakers , there is no other option.

Now this, above, I see as presenting a real problem. As I typed, I think that the sonic limitations of near field listening can be mitigated, but one of the things (that I think) need to be done is to have a clean triangle.

However, I make no claims at all of being an expert on this subject.