Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

@thespeakerdude wrote:

Have you been following what I said I do? Speakers for professional applications? Do you think that just means studio speakers? @donavabdear mixes for movies where you are trying to "recreate" real dynamic events.

And your point is? @donavabdear made no effort to limit his views on dynamics to a given application of reproduction, but rather made a broad statement. I replied accordingly. To most here it’s about home audio reproduction. Dynamics should apply as one sees fit, however setting the bar high here isn’t some fad but rather acting on a hugely important aspect of music (and movie) reproduction. That it isn’t a higher priority has more to do with spousal demands and interior decoration (and even vanity) than a conscious "no thanks."

20CuFt is not really enough for a proper horn loading at 20Hz.

You wrote ".. a real horn loaded speaker at 20Hz," and I’m telling you a 20cf. quarter wave tapped horn with a tune a ~22Hz will do honest and proper 20Hz - period. What isn’t proper is asking a smaller size, lower eff. direct radiator doing the same, even with a surplus of power. And horn sub iterations can be in multiples as well.

Tell me @phusis, what is your personal definition of "dynamics"?

Let me put it this way: my take on dynamics is they matter more than many if not most audiophiles care to pursue via their home setup. Which brings me to your next question..

What is a sufficient peak db level?

To me "sufficient" peak dB level is a max. required SPL number with some +20dB’s of added headroom. A pair of corner placed (i.e.: with boundary gain) high eff. tapped horn subs and high eff. pro cinema main speakers with a combined 2.3kW actively per channel can shell out +125dB’s at the LP (~11ft. listening distance), full-range, so backwards math gives an easy 105dB’s with +20dB’s of headroom - within my actual required range.

Please note that I don’t blast my ears with +110dB peaks like a daily meal, if rarely at all. However, an abundance of full-range headroom provides wholly effortless, low distortion playback that few get to experience, even at levels that are downright physical in nature. The clean (and full-range) dynamic bandwidth not least comes in handy with Blu-ray/4K UHD playback of movies.

I could go on about describing this, but it really requires of one to experience it first-hand to know it. Suffice to say that when you have a bunch of high eff., large diameter transducers (or force multiplied via acoustic transformation) that move very little, yet while producing tremendous SPL’s at the LP, it can provide a very relaxed, full and immersive feel of sound that’s simply not attainable from smaller, low eff. speaker packages.

Coming down to it it’s really about the benchmark I’ve set out to go by within a range of core parameters, and has come to achieve in some measure. ’Core parameters’ may not apply similarly to all, and a MFR rarely has the luxury to go all-out in regards to core physics of reproduction, for reasons already outlined by you. Fortunately DIY and an open approach to which segment of gear is used can change that, relatively uninhibited.

What is a peak db level listening to an orchestra say 10 rows from the stage?

10th row with a large symphony orchestra during tutties? I’d say 105-110dB’s.

How often are you trying to recreate a Saturn V launch?

I don’t, really, and you obviously missed my point. Another example, here from the world of cars, and to hopefully get through with my point this time around: if, say, a Formula car is your effective out-of-reach reference, then for sure a Porsche 911 Carrera GTS is still faster than a Citroen Berlingo, and who among fast-car aficionados wouldn’t appreciate that difference in performance - even without achieving the speed of an F1 racer? Moreover, you’d certainly get a closer feel of what it means driving F1.

@kota1 --

Cool video. It's the first time I've heard of 21" drivers being referred to as "kick subs," but it makes sense looking at that 80" beast of an über infrasonics woofer..!

@kingharold On the contrary you are the audiophile who is not confused, you are the opposite of the normal audiophile who doesn't understand that a speaker and an amp/crossover should be made for each other.

@phusis , Shane Lee was saying that the three ton riser they were sitting on was lifted by that beast. I think you could see the stunned look on peoples faces in the demo, like they just saw Jaws in real life.

And @kingharold , I noticed that the THT measurements are all corner loaded, hence 1/8 space and a 9db gain. Yet the website compares to Genelec readily available measurements which are 1/2 space, i.e. only 3db gain. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

My comment, so we are both being clear, was a 20Hz flat horn would be enormous. Your what appear to be 24" wide THT, as you said 18cu ft is not exactly "flat" to 20Hz (and of note the 1/2 the size vented catches up at 20Hz).

Even the large 27cu ft version is not flat to 20Hz. This is corner placed so maximum boundary reinforcement. It is not going to get better than this. If you had a vented 18cu sub, it would have a significant advantage in the deepest bass. This is an inherent issue with practical bass horns at least for home theater / effects. For a given size, they can’t reach as low as a vented box can. Better efficiency once you get past deep bass, but not as good for deepest bass. There have been designs that try to address that, but everything is a compromise. Fix one issue, create another.

Not that I would expect it to be by the way, just calling out hyperbole.

Now, you say the midranges are 16 feet from the bass? So I have to assume a much bigger listening room than most would be using? This is also implying that the cutoff for the woofers is above 80Hz? Your definition of midrange may not match what most people’s are. I will reserve judgement till you clarify, but if you are running the bass bins with any output past 120Hz, .... well better not to say anything.

@donavabdear , this brings up back to what you were saying about reflections and phase issues. Folded horns, if you have the space, can get some high efficiency and reasonably low distortion. Think of bass bins essentially. Keep the output below 100-120Hz, and phase issues aren’t a problem as we don’t detect even large group delay at those frequencies. Allow them to leak past 120Hz and other than the obvious locatable sub issue, the oscillating phase makes for audible group delay issues.