Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)

“He starts with a long description about a meteor event 25 years ago showing science can be wrong. So? Have doctors been wrong in the past too? Does that mean never to trust science or doctors again?”

@tcotruvo , that wasn’t the point of my anecdote, to say science was wrong. In fact, science was not wrong in this case - nothing about science was incorrect! Rather, the opinions of researchers were wrong, in terms of explaining a specific phenomenon that people were reporting. If people reported a bunch of UFO sightings and researchers didn’t believe them, that would not be an example of science being wrong. My point is that I have also encountered subjective experiences in HiFi that personally, for me alone, make me believe that things I perceive may not be in the realm of what is typically or currently measured when assessing HiFi gear. Just as with the case where I heard the meteors. It does not invalidate or make the measurements of HiFi equipment incorrect. This is a highly personal perspective that need not be adopted by anyone really, for all I care.

I’m not trying to change yours or anyone’s mind. I’m not even trying to claim that I’m right. Rather, I’m just sharing my perspective!  Amir, yourself and others are of course free to share yours.

@prof 

'Anyone with enough money could purchase any speaker you want to name.  Does that make someone technically knowledgeable? '

Vs.

'Someone who owns - and most important! - UNDERSTANDS how to use a Klippel Anlayzer.'

I have met many people who are 'technically knowledgeable' but have no clue how to set up a 'good' hi fi system and vice versa.We may argue what makes a 'good' system, but if you claim that you cant hear difference between usb cables (you have mentioned such case before,it was Nordost in question) than the whole point of discussing is pointless and that is fine with me.

But, I really, really cant understand what drives you, (or anybody else that shares your beleifs) in a attempt where you are trying to 'explain' to people, who have different perspective or experience, that they are 'wrong'?

I found that funny, but also very pretentious, none the less.Does any consumer needs 'Klippel Anlayzer' or blind test, or what ever else to determine what he actually hears?

Building a great hi fi system can be delicate endeavour, but imho you cant do it without lots of experience that you get by listening to very different types and pieces of gear, listening to very different systems and without some sense of hearing...and attending live acoustic concerts for esablishing some sort of  reference...

In the same time, Ralph Karsten, aka the Atmasphere states that everything we hear can be messured. I trust him, but he is constructor and for him those informationa are tools. I believe that other constructors are doing the same and yet, all their gear sounds differently...and than we have you, the ASR crowd, for whom, most of the gear sounds the same...which is great, but for you...do what you like, be happy and leave others to do the same... 

But, I really, really cant understand what drives you, (or anybody else that shares your beleifs) in a attempt where you are trying to ’explain’ to people, who have different perspective or experience, that they are ’wrong’?

That’s an observation that is spot on. I have observed it over and over again since the beginning of my involvement in the hobby some twenty years ago. The explanation is pretty simple, and can be tied to centuries/ millennia of human history: religion. Once one becomes converted to a religion, a believer, it does not stop there, they are heavily encouraged to become preachers, spread the newly acquired belief. That involves going different places, where the non-believers stay, in an attempt to convert them, make them believers. So that those “ignorants”pagans can see the Light too. Colonization, conquering, call it what you want. Thus the term “missionary”

alexatpos

...I really, really cant understand what drives you, (or anybody else that shares your beleifs) in a attempt where you are trying to ’explain’ to people, who have different perspective or experience, that they are ’wrong’? I found that funny, but also very pretentious, none the less.

As @thyname also notes, those who behave that way typically are consumed with belief ("religion") and faith, by definition, requires no proof. The rigid, fundamentalist dogma leaves no room for the infidels who refuse conversion.

As with religion, some of the fundamentalist proselytizers are soft-spoken, engaging, and even appear thoughtful. Some are harsh, brazen, and confrontational.

Occasionally, one will slip up and reveal his agenda, as in this thread:

I have no personal agenda, other than to call out over priced, under performing products when I see them. Audio is full of over priced products that don’t measure up to far cheaper alternatives.

See, he has no personal agenda, he just wants to be the savior.

Does any consumer needs ’Klippel Anlayzer’ or blind test, or what ever else to determine what he actually hears?

Absolutely yes, according the measurementalist’s faith doctrine. That’s why some component evaluations don’t even include listening. After all, listening is such a flawed exercise.

If you want to make this a faith and religion discussion and talk about proof one point of view will win every honest argument. @prof is attempting to bring a balanced view and he still gets attacked. Don’t try to make it appear like you are the voice of reason when you are not.

@tcotruvo I don’t agree with @nyev but I don’t think your depiction of him is fair. Human experience creates strong convictions. I had to do a lot of unlearning "by fire" 20 some off years ago. I had a lot of preconceived ideas based on my "experience". What someone said to me that stuck is I didn’t have experience, I had experiences. They are not the same. Because we experience something does not mean we are gaining experience. Listening to lots of different systems does not give you experience unless you understand what is different about those system and how that translates into how they sound, and even accepting that some things will make minimal or no sound change.

 

Measurements cannot tell if something sounds warm, bright, musical, organic, analytical, transparent, soundstage width/height/depth ... just to name a few.

This was written above. Measurements can tell you most of these things. To understand those measurements and make some conclusions or know how to achieve them takes experience and understanding how things work. Experience also tells us that your interpretation of how something may sound at least for tone is influenced by what you are already listening to as you will adapt to your current system. If you have a "warm" system and listen to another warm system it will sound normal to you. To someone else it may sound overly warm.