Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)

 

@alexatpos

I have met many people who are ’technically knowledgeable’ but have no clue how to set up a ’good’ hi fi system and vice versa.

 

Technically knowledgeable about what? About how audio gear works? If so, I’m doubtful about your claim. I’ve never met someone technically knowledgeable about audio gear who wasn’t able to set up a nice system. In fact there are tons of examples in the ASR forum. (Amir being one of many examples - have you seen his system?)

On the other hand, if you are calling these technically knowledgeable audiophile’s system "bad"; who made you the judge? This hints of audiophile snobbery.

We may argue what makes a ’good’ system, but if you claim that you cant hear difference between usb cables (you have mentioned such case before,it was Nordost in question) than the whole point of discussing is pointless

Discussing USB calbes would only be rendered "pointless" if YOU rendered it pointless, not me. I’m skeptical about audiophile USB cables but I don’t close the conversation: I’m open to being wrong and thus open to any good evidence they can sound different. If you refuse to discuss the issue just because someone else has a different view or experience, then that suggests a close minded dogmatism on your behalf. Why be that way? It’s just cables.

But, I really, really cant understand what drives you, (or anybody else that shares your beleifs) in a attempt where you are trying to ’explain’ to people, who have different perspective or experience, that they are ’wrong’?

Why is it confusing at all to you that an audiophile on an audio forum is bringing his perspective? What in the world do you think enthusiast sites like this are for?

In reacting to my views, I believe you are operating on a bias that you don’t see (which of course is the nature of bias). Step back and consider: Many here just assume various cables sound different, including USB cables. So if you or someone else says "I use X USB cable because it sounded better than X USB cable" you wouldn’t blink, nor would many others. It’s not uncontroversial to you to state that USB (or other) cables sound different. But as soon as another audiophile offers a different view - "I didn’t hear any difference" or...gasp...holds the view that it is highly unlikely for a USB cable to sound different!...then you seem disturbed by this and wonder what could ever drive someone to produce such opinions!

Well it’s the same thing that drives you or anyone else to give YOUR opinions. Except you seem to regard an opposing opinion as heretical - not one you want to even have a discussion with, and one that has you confuse that someone would even explain or defend. That is...really weird if you think about it.

Does any consumer needs ’Klippel Anlayzer’ or blind test, or what ever else to determine what he actually hears?

Did you notice how many times I’ve said no audiophile needs to ever even think about measurements or blind testing if they don’t want to?

However, the results of a Klippel Analysis can be correlated with what IS known about perceived sound quality in speakers. It’s been well studied what kind of measurements will tend to be perceived as "better" by listeners...only listening to the sound (and not going by what they see). It doesn’t mean it’s perfectly predictive for every individual, but it IS informative about the sonic characteristics of a speaker, and can be used to predict which speakers will be more problematic for placement in various rooms vs others.

I mean...are you just flat out rejecting any known research and any advancement in speaker measurements? I hope not. And if not...what is the problem with discussing these techniques?

Building a great hi fi system can be delicate endeavour,

Ok. But people have different approaches, and that’s ok, right?

 

and than we have you, the ASR crowd, for whom, most of the gear sounds the same...

I suspect you have an exaggerated notion of what the ASR crowd believes...and what I believe. I think almost every component I have sounds different from possible alternatives. (Cables less so).

 

which is great, but for you...do what you like, be happy and leave others to do the same...

And buried in that proposal is the bias I’ve been trying to point out to you.

Why in the world do you believe I am "not letting others do the same?"

There is literally nothing in what I’ve written denying any audiophile "has" to share the ASR approach, much less my personal approach, and in fact I’ve been explicit about that. You and others here can go on all day on your views of how cables etc sound different. Yet merely explaining my reasons for having an alternative opinion on certain things - e.g. claims made about USB cables - is characterized as some sort of harassment. Like I’m "not letting you" buy whatever you want and enjoy whatever you want.

It might be worth questioning why you take a certain view as a "default" and find yourself so hostile to alternative opinions, seeing them as harrasment, rather than just a civil exchange of viewpoints and approaches.

 

Cheers.

+1 @prof 

 

Isn't the point of making these topics to discuss. I hope the op was realistic about what the replies may be. Why even have a forum if it's an echo chamber? 

For developing speakers, today, far more time is spent measuring than listening in professional market speakers. That is because we do know how to translate measurements into what is heard and it is far less variable.  I can't comment on consumer speakers but expect for the big ones with resources that is also the case.

Cin Dyment @thespeakerdude :

For developing speakers, today, far more time is spent measuring than listening in professional market speakers

How do YOU know?

Also,

That is because we do know

Who is “we”?

 

 

 

@prof If you say (as loud as you can) that you do not hear difference between cables, I would suggest you that you try two very different ones, lets say Cardas and Nordost. After that, if you still cant hear no difference, I would call you a lucky guy and would say that you have just saved lots of money.

The ’problem’ with your perspective and the way you communicate (you in general sense,its not personal ) is that you are not doing the same with people who claim that they hear the difference. You demand ’proof’ or either offer ’explanations’ why this person perception cant be trusted. Why would we than read about ’anylizers’, blind tests,psychoacoustics, mass psychology, etc, all in favour to your biased perspective?

Now, if that is not ’snobbery’ than its plain rude and ill mannerd behaviour.

As for the Asr crowd, the prevalent notion there is same towards cables (no differences) tubes (they ’distort’ so cant be good), vinyl (cheap digital is way better) dacs (they all sound the same if the specs are ’right’) and so on... and anything that costs more than few hundred bucks is a scam...

Now, dont get me wrong. We are all aware that audio gear has obscene prices and that lots of it is simply not sounding very good and that there is lots of marketing bs. and that there are lots of people who are caring more about the brand or the price than about performance...but they (ASR folks) are going into extreme...and thats fine, for them, or anyone who shares such perspective...but try to write there that  you hear the difference between cables or that you have all tubed system and than tell me who is hostile or with whom you cant have discussion in a civil way?

Imho, this not the argument beetween two different types of opinion, but between two very different types of behaviour

@thespeakerdude 

 

Yep.

This is the strong bias that so many bring to these discussions.  They view their own opinions on how to evaluate gear as the default - e.g. "The Only Way To Truly Evaluate Gear Is By Listening To It, Like We Do"  and make all sorts of claims based on their viewpoint. 

The fact that view might be opposed to another audiophile's approach here doesn't bother them.  But as soon as an alternative opinion or approach is voiced, it's greeted as some form of heresy or dogmatism or harassment.   It's only seen as a one-way street.

This is what bias and dogmatism do to one's perception.

Personally I'm always happy to discuss any point of view in audio.  If someone thinks I'm wrong it's not a personal attack.  We can (or should be able to) discuss the arguments and evidence for why we hold a viewpoint.