DAC as an upgrade

Cerrot,

You're right, of course, but I find it hard to determine when a deficiency is in fact in the recording when the only way to tell is to listen on a player. Even very high end playback systems like DCS employ digital signal processing algorithms to some extent to produce those smooth results. If I don't hear it on a DCS, for example, I don't necessarily think that proves its not there.

I think its all in how smart any particular playback system is in handling the more common issues found in CD recordings to produce the sound they are shooting for.

With vinyl, in many cases, when something didn't sound right, I could visually inspect the grooves and detect damage like wear, scratches, dirt, etc. pretty accurately, actually.

No way to do that with digital. You hear whatever the system gives you after its done converting the bits to a waveform, and that's pretty much it.

I can't look at pits on the surface of a CD and tell whether they are right or not. Sounds like a useful talent, though, if someone out there can!

I read something very enlightening recently in a magazine. The guy who is the talent behind the rock group Boston was lamenting the shortcomings of digital technology in discussing recent remastering of his old material. HE pointed out that the world, sound and music is analog in nature, not digital, and that the whole concept of digital music is an artificial man-made approximation of reality and very hard to get right as a result. Interesting stuff.

I read that same article. I think it was Scholtz (has his own studio and that where the 1st Boston album was recorded-think it was in his house). (and I do agree with that).

A pyhsical defieciency in the disc is absolutely an issue, but I don't think the result would be sibilence; it can be (greassy finger, piece of candy (long story), but I think that would be a skip or stutter). You could always try a friends disc of the same recording to see if it is a physical issue. I was talking about the actual recording. To me, my pursuit of hi-fi goes along with Robert Harley's analogy. I want my system to be as transparent a "window pane" as possible into the original recording. RH said that with each component a window pane is added, with each, somewhat, taking one away from what was recorded. I want as clear a window pane as I can possibly achieve. I suggested trying the disc into as most a revealing system as possible, so you can hear as close as possible, what was recorded.

There was a recording studio in NYC where, on some recordings, you could (on a very revealing system) hear the train passing underground. It may be silly to some fellow audiophiles here but I want to assemble a system where I can hear that train-I wish to be able to hear everything picked up by the microphones (I said it may sound silly). On Jacintha's disc, Jacintha Goes To Hollywood, one of my references is to be able to hear the accordian keys hit their rests (on the upstrokes) on Que Sera Sera. To me, hearing that shows me that my system is revealing even the slightest sounds recorded. I can (and want to) hear a singers lips sticking; the (sorry to be crude) spit going through Gene Aammons sax. I know some may say it is distracting but, to me, it brings me closer to that holey grail of the absolute sound. Now, great recordings absolutely sound great, BUT, lesser ones don't get as much play as they used to when I had a less revealing system, as I now hear all of the defeciencies. But I also hear all the incredible details. CD's I have heard for years are now an indepth experience.

Cerrot,

I'm with you regarding what makes for a good listening experience.

"RH said that with each component a window pane is added"

True, but with digital, it doesn't take a component to do this. A lot can happen within a tiny chip embedded within that component, similar to like a function within a larger computer program.

For example, what you hear when the digital signal is upsampled, interpolated and perhaps dithered is not what you would hear at the original sampling frequency. That is a type of signal processing enhancement designed explicitly to make the signal sound different in a better way.

If the detail is missing in those original bits recorded however, no processing after the fact can bring them back. All that can be done is either leave it as is or play signal processing tricks to make it sound more digestible before hitting the DAC.

Then of course, the DAC is the device that has to take the digital bits and accurately construct the waveform. There is a lot technically that can go right or wrong here that can also make a big difference in resulting sound, but the DAC as well cannot recover bits of information that were not there in the first place.

Mapman,

Absolutely, 1000% agreed. Personally, I think the digital medium is crap. I fought CD's for years. Back in the 80's, I was kind of insulted when I started seeing CD's for sale in my local record shop. I thought that they should be sold in a softwear store, not a record store.

I know that vinyl is far superior and my modest TNT turntable still blows away my CD rig. BUT, convenience and availabilty and my unfortunate neverending quest for trying to make sense of the silver disc has prevailed, and I felt I had no choice to accept the the CD. I am finally happy with my CD playback, though I know (1) vinyl is still better (warmer, more real, just a truer sense of actually experiencing the performancd) and, (2) somewhere out there (at probably $60,000+) is a CD player that will bring me closer. I do feel that if technology isn't there now, it wil be in a few years, where the gap between vinyl and CD will be greatly deminished (or, at least, I hope).

SACD has been a pretty good experience for me with the Esoteric. While still different from vinyl, I actually enjoy listening to music in that format and do have the little hairs stand on my neck during a great recording. I understand that it is still an unnatural medium, but, at times, I am tired of the 20 minute ritual of cleaning a record for 30 minutes of playing. But, there is something truly magical about vinyl.

I really do think, though, that an outboard, good dac, will make the CD experience better for you. If you're ever on Long Island, NY, please come by for a listen.

Meanwhile, right now I'm watching a Three Dog Night Live DVD playing on the Marantz DV-4200 DVD player in my separate 2 channel A/V system (vintage Yamaha receiver driving Triangle Titus 202 + M&K sub) and its sounding pretty sweet. Digital can be pretty darn good when done right.