Koestu original Onyx Sig pre-platinum cart vs. later/current platinum Sig comparisons

Hi @mijostyn 

cc: @mulveling 

cc:  @statman71 

Good day "MIJOSTYN"!  You made comment that that "no Koetsu fan I know of prefers the later cartridges", namely the platinum versions and just more recent versions.  Now, I have had this belief as well for a very long time.  I was considered "crazy".  Even if you speak to someone today in Retail or affiliate with Koetsu, or a distributer,  they refuse the believe such a statement.  Even if you state that you are listening to an "old" 10, 15, 20, or 30 year old Koetsu  -  It is impossible to be better.  For certain the suspension must be suspect, and it can not possibly be as good.  That you need to buy a new one and compare it, you will agree.  If you stated you did buy a new one just 4 years ago, and was completely disappointed and choose to part with it.  They imply that you are lying or there is something "wrong" with your system even if you provide them with copies of the receipts.  I understand the technical aspects, after all, I am a technical person and I do take measurements after listening judgements (always after never before), and, I know room acoustics play a very important role, and, in my case that involves three rooms, and I do know that opinions are subjective.  However, what you are saying, and what I also believe to be true is a significant matter.  And, I was wondering, because I do not belong to any forums or have any experience in such matters, and I notice you have 7,074 posts, which indicates your knowledge and experience.  Is there a way to conduct a survey of others to find out what they think to be true.  Which can relate to more meaningful purchases for others.  What I am implying is that people interested in obtaining a Koetsu would also entertain an "older" Koetsu to purchase as an alternative to a brand new one.  Do you have any thoughts?  Is there away to conduct such a  meaningful survey?

@wizzzard , You could try opening a post on Audiogon. Otherwise, I am not sure how you would attract experienced Koetsu users. Most of us attribute the decline to Sugano San's death. His son took over and the theory is that he is not as talented. I do not think the QC is as good. In short I prefer My Sonic Lab cartridges at least while Matsudaira San is alive. He is the preeminent living Japanese cartridge designer at this time. Only Jonathan Carr and Ortofon are as or more progressive.

Buying an old cartridge is highly problematic. Retipping the cartridge may not return it to it's former glory even if done by Koetsu. In many instance they just give you a new cartridge in exchange for the old one. Cartridges are like wine. Once you drink the bottle they are a memory only. 

@mijostyn 

Thank you for your response.  First, I was not aware of Matsudaira San and his talents and abilities and I thank you for making me aware of him and "My Sonic Lab".  However, I also agree with you comments about Ortofon and their superior engineering and manufacturing capabilities.  You do nat remain in business for so long without the commitment they have made over the many years.  I have respected their abilities for many years.  Lief Johannsen has provided some excellent products even more recently.  Shortly after Orotofon came out with the "MC A95", I requested that my name be included to purchase the 100 year anniversary version when it would become available, that is, the "MC Century".  I never did obtain one, however, that may have been for the best!  I believe they sold for "Crazy High Prices".  I did purchase and still retain the "Ortofon X5-MC", and the "Ortofon MC-30 Supreme".

It is unfortunate that companies that developed a name and reputation for themselves over the year because of the superiority and quality of their product only to "go downhill" in manufacturing, quality control, etc., and simply rest on their laurels of previous years.  I have directly witnessed such decline in other areas such as Footwear, Sporting Goods, and others after a change in leadership or when purchased by another party.  It is sad and at times disturbing for me to have witnessed.  When accountants ran the manufacturing divisions.  I certainly have no idea what happened at Koetsu,, but, you are absolutely correct to attribute the decline after Sugano San's departure.  But the decline continued and is steady.  Today Koetsu essentially is enjoying a receptive market founded on what was made by them in 1990 and earlier.  Today, Koetsu could not provide me with anything that I would be pleased with.  And, I would challenge them to prove otherwise.

You mention the wear of the stylus, but certainly a suspension could be changed easily if all else is well.  And an older cartridge is either "Broken", or in need of a stylus or cantilever, or the suspension.  Are you convinced that they simply replace the unit?  I would not be surprised that would be the case, however, there could easily be exceptions.

I would be pleased if only someone from Koetsu would care to contribute to this Forum.  I only expounded on this matter because at the age of 77, and being a technical person, and starting, owning, and operating a manufacturing facility before selling and retiring because of medical issues of both my wife and I, I am disappointed in some areas where there is/was no need for disappointment.  I hope that Ortofon continues on and perhaps. others enter the picture to continue in this analog industry that is continuing to grow contrary to the other alternatives.  And, I certainly do not intend to discredit some of the alternatives, however, there is nothing close to listening to an excellent Vinyl recording on a good system.  And, yes I realize that this is a limited and expensive pursuit.  I hope that the future allows for excellent capabilities at a significantly lower cost.  There is no need to be as exclusive because of one's ability to purchase expensive components.

Enough said! 

'Stratus seekers for status seekers' is the way I once heard someone describe Koetsu cartridges. As in 'somewhat cloudy, misty and warm sounding' having an irresistable attraction to people who believe that buying a Koetsu is the entry ticket to some exclusive club. It's the same kind of pride of ownership you can observe with other luxury brand goods. There's nothing wrong with that of course, but it's a lifestyle thing and has very little to do with the sound quality.

I acquired a Koetsu Onyx some time ago (no 'P' in the serial number, so presumably a pre platinum version) to find out for myself what all the fuss is about. I still haven't a clue, although I've tried all I could to make it sing. It's been installed in 5 different tonearms, in voltage and current gain amplification devices, in 2 different SUT's (one copper wired, the other silver) and with a wide variety of headshells, leadwires and tonearm cables (balanced as well as unbalanced). But no matter what I did, to some extend it would always sound congested and with a limited bandwidth. I have to assume this is their sonic imprint which sticks to it like white on rice (or brown as it turns out). Apparently there are a lot of folks who (think they) like it that way. I don't, but at least I satisfied my curiosity. Exit Koetsu.